Is this job on it's arse?

Just having a look through some fuel receipts this morning dated Feb 2003, I was subbing for a courier company @ 62 pence a mile and fuel was £0.72 a litre, today people don't want to pay much more than £0.60-£0.70 per mile with fuel at £1.46.9 people can't keep running much longer a these rates, something has to give.

LWS! I'm not referring to you, and I apologise if I keeep going on about prices, but to make a fair/reasonable profit is all we want.

Things certainly are not good and I have to say it is the drivers own fault in working for low rates, that have driven prices down. I heard only this week that a colleague was asked to reduce his normal price for a Manchester to Lyon job. The customer told him he had had a quote of £500 [Five Hundred pounds]. It is 800 miles from A to B, plus ferry. I know the backload bandit supporters will pop up and defend it, but it is not possible to do it correctly at that price!

In 1994 I had regular jobs from the west Midlands to Mullhouse of 750 miles, and I was charging £1200 for a SWB Transit.

I have said before that it is rarely possible to get similar pro-rata prices now. The Internet has played it's part at driving prices down, along with people relying on a 'hopeful' backload!

The blame lies squarely on the drivers who work for 'silly' prices. If they refused to work for anything other than decent money the companies giving out the work would have no choice other than to raise their rates offered.

There will always be Customers that will pay well, as they appreciate an Urgent dedicated service, but in this current economic climate, there are many that will be looking for nothing other than the cheapest option, and just hope that nothing goes wrong, which in many cases it does!

Alun you know if folk refused to work there would be others to replace them and pobably cheaper as well, but a revolt will never happen and if it did we would be really busy and gain new clients ;). I also had a regular ask for a price for there client for a Fri afternoon from Halifax-Geneva 4 sat 6am, it was 800miler and urgent but transpired not to be that urgent for the price. Like you priced it accordingly for a bike.

It recently came to my attention that there's a midlands based company offering it out to end users at between 79-85pplm for a small vehicle with the sole intention of getting sameday jobs covered on exchanges at backload prices, at these end user prices they can only be done at backload prices.

Foolish foolish people

There will be no revolt! This is a pointless industry to be in, I dont even know why new people start up.

As pointed out silly companies! It did not help when somebody sold his company for 8 million got bored with early retirement came back for something to do then charges out to the end user for 75p a mile.

Barnsley Shipping (Bob)

The job works better when people's contact numbers given on sites like this actually work - yours has been down since at least last thursday evening when I was looking to get a Rotherham to Liverpool to covered urgently.

Regards Ian

MK Bikes said:

---

It recently came to my attention that there's a midlands based company offering it out to end users at between 79-85pplm for a small vehicle with the sole intention of getting sameday jobs covered on exchanges at backload prices, at these end user prices they can only be done at backload prices.

Foolish foolish people

There is also just such a person based near Exeter that is doing precisely that as well.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

Alun you know if folk refused to work there would be others to replace them and pobably cheaper as well, but a revolt will never happen and if it did we would be really busy and gain new clients ;). I also had a regular ask for a price for there client for a Fri afternoon from Halifax-Geneva 4 sat 6am, it was 800miler and urgent but transpired not to be that urgent for the price. Like you priced it accordingly for a bike.

Gary, I did not even suggest a revolt? personally I couldn't give a monkeys' left one, if numpties want to run around at ridiculous rates. As I said, thankfully there are companies who realise that they get what they pay for, and if anything is URGENT they are prepared to pay for a 'proper' service.

Alan

Perhaps part of the problem lies with the customer, not just the companies who undercharge. I think peoples' decision-making processes, when it comes to spending money, are different now to how they were. 1997 was the first year in British history when the average household spent more on leisure than food. I think that's indicative of an overall trend away from paying for essential services, towards luxuries instead. So an urgent delivery, which might have been seen as a necessity a few years back, and worth the expense, comes under greater scrutiny these days before the customer devides whether or not to splash out.

Obviously each customer is different though. And maybe i'm wrong anyway! I haven't been in the game that long.

Over the last ten years, the person to suffer most is the subbie, buy new van every 3 years, fill it with fuel almost every day, servicing/tyre costs up, road tax up, more traffic to contend with, and worsening roads, potholes etc, and subbie rates almost identical to 10 years ago, not much better for the Courier company subbing the work out, but their expenses havn't gone through the quite has much, it's time for subbies to stand there ground and demand better pay, ok there is always other people to replace them, but there are a lot of bad ones, i'm sure a good subbie should be paid more, i'm not doing this for myself, because I don't take any subbie work, or go out and work for less than a set ammount, i'm in quite a fortunate position where if I dont work for a while i'm ok, so guys stand up for yourselves you deserve more.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

i'm not doing this for myself, because I don't take any subbie work, or go out and work for less than a set ammount, i'm in quite a fortunate position where if I dont work for a while i'm ok, so guys stand up for yourselves you deserve more.

So why did you raise this thread then?

I raised the thread for everbody else out there who is in a rut, and plodding on something needs to be done, I feel strong enough about it, and I have the gut's to say what I think, is that a good enough reason?

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

Just having a look through some fuel receipts this morning dated Feb 2003, I was subbing for a courier company @ 62 pence a mile and fuel was £0.72 a litre, today people don't want to pay much more than £0.60-£0.70 per mile with fuel at £1.46.9 people can't keep running much longer a these rates, something has to give.

LWS! I'm not referring to you, and I apologise if I keeep going on about prices, but to make a fair/reasonable profit is all we want.

No probs Gary, perhaps I'm a good guy here as I pay £1plm small vans :-) Also very little of my work is urgent Sameday as 99.9% is next day delivery.

There does not always seem to be a clear demarcation between Sameday and Urgent. Next day is self explanatory, but there is a vast difference between Urgent and sameday.

If a part is required for a broken machine for example, if it was collected at 6.00am so long as it got to it's destination by midnight, the criteria for sameday has been met. Even though it might be costing thousands of pounds whilst the machine is out of action.

Urgent, means it is collected and delivered as fast as possible without co-loading or trans- shipping.

As in most things in life you pay for what you get!

The job has taken some what of a plunge in the last couple of weeks, the Courier Exchange is deathly quiet. Any more of it and I might have to get a proper job

I'll tell you the biggest problem with this business today. It's not the subbie charging 50ppm, either. It's the larger companies with 18T / artics trundling up and down the M/ways day after day, with a bit of space on board, who are willing to go from London to Newcastle (for example) for £40-£50. Just for a bit of diesel money. How the hell is an owner driver supposed to compete with that? Hang in there fellow owner drivers, they'll only bugger it up eventually, anyway...

They cant hang in there at 2003 rates, if there fuel bill was say £6000 a year then, and in 2013 they are doing a similar milleage, its costing them roughly £12000 a year for fue,l with no increase in subbie rates who is losing out, the subbie or the company giving them the work, its the subbie it just dosn't make sense to be a subbie anymore, they need a decent price increase and soon.

Gary

Here is your example played out in black and white

2003

i) Assuming 0.62p per litre and 52 litres to fill up = cost of £32.24 per tank

ii) 50 miles per gallon would give you 11miles per litre so a full tank approx 572 miles

iii) Assuming a 2003 rate of 62p per mile and only half your miles paid (A to B only) then you'd have been grossing £177.32 for every tank of fuel less the cost of filling up (£32) would've given you

iv) £145 per tank

2013

i) 1.47 per litre and 52 litres to fill up = £76.44

ii) same

iii) @70pplm you would gross £200.20

iv) £123.76 per tank

That's £20 less per tank 2013 v 2003

or to put it another way using Gary's example

2003 £6000 in fuel = 9677 litres @ 11 miles per litre=106,447 miles divide by 2 = 53,223.50 paid miles @ 0.62p = turnover of £32,998 minus fuel = £26,998

2013 53,223.50 paid miles @ 0.70p =£37,256 minus fuel (9677 x £1.47= £14,225) = £23,031

I'm not saying its good, i'm just showing what it means in black and white for those who want to see it

So using AJM's 2003 0.62pplm you would need to be charging around 77-78ppl

(this is fuel only, and doesn't take into account increases in insurance, roadtax meat pies etc etc)

Sorry 2003 should read I) 72p per litre III) cost of filling up £37.44 IV) £140 per tank

So less than £20 difference per tank

Or

2003 £6000 in fuel (based on 0.72p per litre)= 8333 litres @ 11 miles per litre =91.663 miles divided by 2 45,831 paid miles @ 62pplm = £28,415 less fuel (£6,000)= £22,415

2013 fuel now £12,249 (8333 x £1.47) 45831 paid miles @ 70pplm =£32,081 less fuel (£12,249)=£19,831

So to make the same as 2003, assuming AJM's 72p per mile fuel price is correct and 62pplm 2003 rates are also correct, then you need to be charging around 75pplm

Rob, thanks for the sums, but there is no getting away from the fact that subbie is for example £6000 pound out of pocket plus insurance has doubled that is a fact, most courier copmanies who use subbies are probably saying that I should shut up, but it needs pointing out that prices need increasing, Rob 75 pence per mile sounds fine, but who is going to be the first to increase it, before your best subbies start to drop off in droves.

I have used a few subbies over the years, my main years where 2005/2006 I paid them £0.70 pence a mile then, I have invoices to prove it

I have read this feed with interest. I was happy to sub for a living, not wanting to find own customers, supporting others. Now I'm having to develop my business to find my own direct clients.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

75 pence per mile sounds fine,but who is going to be the first to increase it, before your best subbies start to drop off in droves.

I pay past that already

I would be happy to get 75p as a subbie. You get nowhere near that in Leeds some only 50p others 60p, which is not viable. Fuel at £1.45 litre insurance at £2500 per year plus running costs.

MK Bikes said:

---

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

75 pence per mile sounds fine,but who is going to be the first to increase it, before your best subbies start to drop off in droves.

I pay past that already

Well done Mk, I know of people who pay, 52 & 58 pence a mile & then say well your make your pay up with non existent backloads

TLC Couriers said:

---

I would be happy to get 75p as a subbie. You get nowhere near that in Leeds some only 50p others 60p, which is not viable. Fuel at £1.45 litre insurance at £2500 per year plus running costs.

Thats a bloody disgrace, you are expected to be in a trustworthy position if thats what they think of people, is it any wonder people make clangers and have no conscience they days, in 1999 I did a bit of subbie work for 3 months the guy paid me 46 pence per mile then, if people are bored with me going on, THEN tell me why we all get out of bed in a morning

TLC Couriers said:

---

I would be happy to get 75p as a subbie. You get nowhere near that in Leeds some only 50p others 60p, which is not viable. Fuel at £1.45 litre insurance at £2500 per year plus running costs.

Bare in Mind your vat registered (some would say and your point is) well as a vendor Im not Vat registered so in affect, If I was to pay bill 0.80pplm that would equate to 0.96pplm, and for me to pay. 80pplm it would actually be 0.66pplm+vat, so your 0.75 would be to a non vat vendor 0.90p. Just thought I'd add this one to the mix

I dont think this needs complicating anymore than it already is. I am surprised anyone "selling" jobs is not vat registered tho

That aside i don't think anyone who can't or won't pay 70-75pplm can have any arguments to back themselves up

My equation shows that the difference between 2003 and 2013 amounts to 10-15pplm to keep on a par. Are vendors seriously suggesting they haven't put their prices up by this amount and more in the same timeframe?

Yes there are market forces and the bigboys to contend with, but 50pplm? Thats plain daft

Anyone serious enough about making money in this industry - the first thing they would do is get vat registered IMHO - unless all their work is public domain where it MAY not benefit them having to charge VAT

So no... Despite what the forums say, i don't think this job is on its arse

I DO think there are some pisstaking vendors... But there always have been

Don't think you need to undercharge what you're worth, cos you won't feel good about the work you do get if you feel you've had to do it under duress

There are those happy paying £1 plm and those happy at quoting 65pplm

However that doesn't necessarily follow that one is better than the other

I've known some bloody good drivers who charge 65-70 and equally i've known some crap drivers in the 80-90p's

surley it will be down to market forces? Prices will be down at the moment as it always dries up a bit this time of year, 0.50ppm is paid by the big boys but they have people falling over themselves to get paid weekly,

people come people go it's all part of the industry,

Ok, lets forget the big boys let's concentrate on every courier company on here who subs work out, who has the guts to tell us there subbie rates, now I don't use any subbies these day, but last time I did was 2010 I paid 75-80 pence for a small van, and £1.00 a mile for Lwb, if people want to pay less than that it is because they don't care about the subbie or don't charge enough, ask yourself who's profit has dwindled most in the last few years, the subbies or the person handing the work out.

You know the answer to that one, but to be fair, a lot of vendors have been feeling the pinch with less work so it's not all about margins, its also about volume

Vendors get squeezed from both angles.. The customer wants more for less, the subbie wants to make a living

To make the same amount of money as 2003 you have to charge more AND do more work.

The problem is there is less to go around, and more wanting it, so the end result, as in every industry, is prices go down

You can't change it, it's the way it is

It sure is a mish mash. 70 pplm minimum for small van work but when returning home, there are some who are posting as a 'hotshot' on Courier Exchange expect you to charge a backload rate... Its bloody annoying at times tbh. If its a hotshot, then its got to be the trade price for the job.

I agree with what your saying, but no every industry has reduced it's prices, fuel has gone, food and everday items are through the roof, holidays have gone up big style, that can't be an excuse not to raise your prices or even give the subbie a rise, ic you feel you are paying them a fair rate that's fine, but there are lot's of people out there who are not, the poor subbie is out there working all hours, he/she is worth more than an out of date price, and everybody saying well it's quiet, or we are in a reccesion

I think people over look the fact that many of the companies also have their own vans drivers controller rates phones and things. Its no bed of roses for a company these days. You have 10 to 15 vans parked up with employed drivers! It does more damage to them then the owner driver

Springer Express Couriers said:

---

surley it will be down to market forces? Prices will be down at the moment as it always dries up a bit this time of year, 0.50ppm is paid by the big boys but they have people falling over themselves to get paid weekly,

people come people go it's all part of the industry,

Like to comment on this a lot of people will run at the lower rates if they can be paid quicker Going into cirtisprint to tread water until better times is not such a bad idea if mean you stay in business.

Im resisting that one Barnsley Shipping...

Barnsley Shipping said:

---

I think people over look the fact that many of the companies also have their own vans drivers controller rates phones and things. Its no bed of roses for a company these days. You have 10 to 15 vans parked up with employed drivers! It does more damage to them then the owner driver

Springer Express Couriers said:

---

surley it will be down to market forces? Prices will be down at the moment as it always dries up a bit this time of year, 0.50ppm is paid by the big boys but they have people falling over themselves to get paid weekly,

people come people go it's all part of the industry,

Like to comment on this a lot of people will run at the lower rates if they can be paid quicker Going into cirtisprint to tread water until better times is not such a bad idea if mean you stay in business.

Bob - your number is still not working!

All this talk about price per mile etc, Do any subbies take anything else into account or are they happy to get a fixed price per mile whatever the job is?

I certainly charge / quote my customers more, if the job is :

• To London [can take hours longer to complete]
• If the job involves Handballing or carrying items up stairs.
• If it is to a location that cannot be reached by good motorways.
• To Eire, as such alot of wasted time waiting for infrequent ferries.
• Or just a job I do not fancy doing.

Thankfully I rarely have to sub out any work, and certainly do not seek to sub any work.

But are most happy to accept say £1 / mile whatever the job entailed?

Rapid, absolutely, i feel the same. I always feel very uncomfortable answering the general question 'how much do you charge' with a flat plm rate. Having said that, i try to keep it as simple as possible so the customer can semi-predict my quote by themself.

I can't believe there are no subbies joining in in with this, are you all happy with your rates, or would you like an increase, I'm trying to help them, I'm ok but if nobody wants to say anything then you must be happy with your rates, and the courier company has won one over on you, I will say this, thete are a lot of good people out there who pay a fair price and pay up on time, I'm not aiming this at you, I'm aiming this at the ones who staying quiet and paying a poor rate.

OK, we charge different rates for different sized vans ( obviously). If you work for us as a direct subbie with a small van we will pay between 79.3 per mile ( 30 mile job) and 68.3 ( 250 mile job) and you get paid within a fortnight of doing the job.

If you give us a price for the job which is higher than we would expect and we accept it then we still charge our customer the same as we would were we to be doing the job ourselves or using a direct subbie, but you will get paid at the end of the month following the date of the invoice.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

I can't believe there are no subbies joining in in with this, are you all happy with your rates, or would you like an increase, I'm trying to help them, I'm ok but if nobody wants to say anything then you must be happy with your rates, and the courier company has won one over on you, I will say this, thete are a lot of good people out there who pay a fair price and pay up on time, I'm not aiming this at you, I'm aiming this at the ones who staying quiet and paying a poor rate.

You are obviously pointing at the Rico and City Sprints of the world!

I appreciate what you are trying to do Gary, but surely, whilst there are drivers willing to run around at poor rates the companies giving them work cannot be blamed"

Not a good time really to be a courier, as far too many chasing fewer and fewer loads, yet still there seems a glut of new starters. Can't weigh it up at times!

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

---

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

I can't believe there are no subbies joining in in with this, are you all happy with your rates, or would you like an increase, I'm trying to help them, I'm ok but if nobody wants to say anything then you must be happy with your rates, and the courier company has won one over on you, I will say this, thete are a lot of good people out there who pay a fair price and pay up on time, I'm not aiming this at you, I'm aiming this at the ones who staying quiet and paying a poor rate.

You are obviously pointing at the Rico and City Sprints of the world!

I appreciate what you are trying to do Gary, but surely, whilst there are drivers willing to run around at poor rates the companies giving them work cannot be blamed"

Not a good time really to be a courier, as far too many chasing fewer and fewer loads, yet still there seems a glut of new starters. Can't weigh it up at times!

Alan some good points, but there will be people on here who are still earning the same profit margin has ten years ago and paying the subbie a poor rate, its those people who want exposing, how much more can a poorly paid subbie take, I passed a courier van last week, 2001 Citreon berlingo I wouldn't trust that to go to Tesco in 2 miles away, when I first started I bought a brand new berlingo van, 1 for reliability & 2 for image, if people are going to pay peanuts, then vans are going to get older, unreliable and look crap, who wants that in this industry, I was offered some subbie work last week, I turned it down, I want a decent milleage rate, because Iwant to make a living, not just a few quid.

Some subbies are their own worst enemies! They go round the industrial estates etc. Touting for end user work and quoting prices just above subbie rates. They don't take into account that they will have to wait 2 to 3 months for their money and, in any case, rarely get the work. What they do succeed in doing is keeping prices low as its very difficult to convince a buyer to pay more for our services when so many are offering lower rates.

3D Courier Services said:

---

Some subbies are their own worst enemies! They go round the industrial estates etc. Touting for end user work and quoting prices just above subbie rates. They don't take into account that they will have to wait 2 to 3 months for their money and, in any case, rarely get the work. What they do succeed in doing is keeping prices low as its very difficult to convince a buyer to pay more for our services when so many are offering lower rates.

Very true

Just had an occasional user ask me (after I had given me my quote) to match another quote 12% lower than mine, which if I paid the subbie the usual rate he would expect I would be left with 18% profit and have to wait a month for payment.

He did a similar thing last week, I said no again and he called back an hour later and booked it, its like play cards!

MK Bikes said:

---

Just had an occasional user ask me (after I had given me my quote) to match another quote 12% lower than mine, which if I paid the subbie the usual rate he would expect I would be left with 18% profit and have to wait a month for payment.

He did a similar thing last week, I said no again and he called back an hour later and booked it, its like play cards!

I bet he dosnt ask his favourite restaurant for a discount when he goes there on a saturday night in is Porsche with is friends and he orders a bottle of chateau lafleur, well done MK don't let them grind you down

Every day it seems we get asked a price for a delivery and when given, get a 'we have been quoted £30 less, can you match it'? The answer is always NO

Trouble is, I know many that would!

2 years ago, Lost a multi thousand pound contract, for refusing to 'match' the prices quoted by a 'big player' Sooner walk away than work for less than I want.

Barnsley Shipping said:

---

I think people over look the fact that many of the companies also have their own vans drivers controller rates phones and things. Its no bed of roses for a company these days. You have 10 to 15 vans parked up with employed drivers! It does more damage to them then the owner driver

Springer Express Couriers said:

---

surley it will be down to market forces? Prices will be down at the moment as it always dries up a bit this time of year, 0.50ppm is paid by the big boys but they have people falling over themselves to get paid weekly,

people come people go it's all part of the industry,

Like to comment on this a lot of people will run at the lower rates if they can be paid quicker Going into cirtisprint to tread water until better times is not such a bad idea if mean you stay in business.

How can you stay in buisness working at 50pplm?

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

---

Every day it seems we get asked a price for a delivery and when given, get a 'we have been quoted £30 less, can you match it'? The answer is always NO

Trouble is, I know many that would!

2 years ago, Lost a multi thousand pound contract, for refusing to 'match' the prices quoted by a 'big player' Sooner walk away than work for less than I want.

Good on you for that, I too wont do it for less either. Ive had many a customer wanting it for the price of a postage stamp, and they think cause its a bike its cheaper! obviously theyve never owned and run a bike.. No if they want it cheaper they can go else where. Probably explains why I get 2 jobs out of every 10 enquiries..

wm couriers said:

---

Barnsley Shipping said:

---

I think people over look the fact that many of the companies also have their own vans drivers controller rates phones and things. Its no bed of roses for a company these days. You have 10 to 15 vans parked up with employed drivers! It does more damage to them then the owner driver

Springer Express Couriers said:

---

surley it will be down to market forces? Prices will be down at the moment as it always dries up a bit this time of year, 0.50ppm is paid by the big boys but they have people falling over themselves to get paid weekly,

people come people go it's all part of the industry,

Like to comment on this a lot of people will run at the lower rates if they can be paid quicker Going into cirtisprint to tread water until better times is not such a bad idea if mean you stay in business.

How can you stay in buisness working at 50pplm?

You cant, you need at least 85 pence to make it worth you while even getting out of bed even then it's touch and go.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

---

Every day it seems we get asked a price for a delivery and when given, get a 'we have been quoted £30 less, can you match it'? The answer is always NO

Trouble is, I know many that would!

2 years ago, Lost a multi thousand pound contract, for refusing to 'match' the prices quoted by a 'big player' Sooner walk away than work for less than I want.

Good on you for that, I t wont do it for less either. Ive had many a customer wanting it for the price of a postage stamp, and they think cause its a bike its cheaper! obviously theyve never owned and run a bike.. No if they want it cheaper they can go else where. Probably explains why I get 2 jobs out of every 10 enquiries..

Certainly NOT cheaper to run a Bike!

People do not realise that a bike is more expensive than a van to run and maintain properly.

2 new tyres just cost me £285 and if lucky will last about 5k miles.

No more economical on Fuel either.

I agree with you Gary, not worth quoting cheap!

50pplm is the rate from our friends at Royal Mail for a small van

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

TLC Couriers said:

---

50pplm is the rate from our friends at Royal Mail for a small van

50p is only the starting price ... then you negotiate upwards. Or better still, you tell them what you're willing to do it for and they'll tell you whether they can live with that or not.

TLC Couriers said:

---

50pplm is the rate from our friends at Royal Mail for a small van

Lots of different pplm rates for small vans mentioned, what do you think should be the going subby rate for LWB Vans it probably differs up and down the country, it would be interesting to know :)

BusinessBuddy said:

---

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

What the VAT threshold is currently at is completely irrelevant. I believe that any subbie who is actively working should be VAT registered since the majority of their clients will be.

As such, this can help to reduce their fuel bill by anywhere between £100-£200 per month.

Scott.

BusinessBuddy said:

---

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

Alot of subbies wont be on the threshold, they're VAT registered to claim on everything that benefits them inc fuel, as for me running a business as a non vat registered doesnt make any difference to the end user especially companies as theyre not put off by this so this makes it favourable to the private individual customer as well.

HSP Couriers said:

---

Anyone serious enough about making money in this industry - the first thing they would do is get vat registered IMHO - unless all their work is public domain where it MAY not benefit them having to charge VAT

Why would I want to rush out to be Vat Registered.. Is it because its the normal thing to do? there are pro's and cons, and I prefer not to be.. You dont have to be vat registerd to make money.

Manadon Despatch said:

---

TLC Couriers said:

---

50pplm is the rate from our friends at Royal Mail for a small van

50p is only the starting price ... then you negotiate upwards. Or better still, you tell them what you're willing to do it for and they'll tell you whether they can live with that or not.

Start running at 50pplm in order to negotiate up, you won't last two months.

If 50pplm is your outgoing rate you might as well go and work for minimum wage.

Scott.

I would also add that if you keep your paper work properly it takes less than 2 hours to do a VAT return once every 3 months.

Scott.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

HSP Couriers said:

---

Anyone serious enough about making money in this industry - the first thing they would do is get vat registered IMHO - unless all their work is public domain where it MAY not benefit them having to charge VAT

Why would I want to rush out to be Vat Registered.. Is it because its the normal thing to do? there are pro's and cons, and I prefer not to be.. You dont have to be vat registerd to make money.

The most obvious pro is that diesel effectively costs £1.20 instead of £1.44

I'm curious what 'cons' you have that can offset that.

Peter Riley said:

---

I would also add that if you keep your paper work properly it takes less than 2 hours to do a VAT return once every 3 months.

Scott.

Most of the main accounts packagages these days submit them electronically and it's literally just one button click and a couple of seconds.

We use QuickBooks, costs about £100 and very easy to use.

I agree about the accounts software. I paid £5.00 for sage at a computer fair. Tells me all I need to know at the click of a button. How anyone in this business cannot be vat registered is beyond me! If you have a turnover of, for example, £50,000.00 with costs of £30,000.00 you are giving the vat man £5,000.00 a year.

BusinessBuddy said:

---

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

I Thought this thread was about sub contractor rates?

wm couriers said:

---

BusinessBuddy said:

---

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

I Thought this thread was about sub contractor rates?

It is, but it appears every owner driver/ subbie is happy with there rates, so we should hear nno more grumbling about rates in the near future.

---

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

i'm not doing this for myself, because I don't take any subbie work, or go out and work for less than a set ammount, i'm in quite a fortunate position where if I dont work for a while i'm ok, so guys stand up for yourselves you deserve more.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

So why did you raise this thread then?

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

I raised the thread for everbody else out there who is in a rut, and plodding on something needs to be done, I feel strong enough about it, and I have the gut's to say what I think, is that a good enough reason?

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

wm couriers said:

---

BusinessBuddy said:

---

Back to VAT! I thought all couriers were struggling on the breadline so who earns over the VAT threshold.

I Thought this thread was about sub contractor rates?

It is, but it appears every owner driver/ subbie is happy with there rates, so we should hear nno more grumbling about rates in the near future.

Hold on am I missing something..

Your not missing anything!

I quoted a job the other day 255 miles for a xlwb i went in at 0.85p per mile which i think is a very good price, but suprise i didnt get it and i asked what it went for and it went for £120... Yes some one may have done it for a backload but it seems to me every job you price goes for a very low price, so yes i think the job is on its arse. Also i agree any one who isnt vat reg must be mad and are chucking money away. On a plus side im off to mexico in 4 weeks

It seems to me that people are always complaining about rates that jobs go for! IF the job is of a non urgent nature one can't blame the vendor getting it done as cheap as possible, therefore maximising their profit! If on the other hand it is an URGENT job, quality not 'cheap' should come into play.

There seems to be little indication as to what type of delivery is required, maybe it would be good practice to clearly state just what 'type' of delivery is required, that would enable subbies to submit a realistic quote.

I suppose you will still get vendors trying to get Urgent dedicated jobs done on the cheap, which is ok until something 'hopefully' goes wrong!

If jobs were clearly advertised as 'Urgent' 'Dedicated' 'Backload' 'non urgent' etc, there would surely be less misunderstanding and disapointment?

There is a place for comments on the booking form but I find bidders rarely read it.

May be its time at accept defeat and let the poles win and chuck the towel in

metson express couriers said:

---

I quoted a job the other day 255 miles for a xlwb i went in at 0.85p per mile which i think is a very good price, but suprise i didnt get it and i asked what it went for and it went for £120... Yes some one may have done it for a backload but it seems to me every job you price goes for a very low price, so yes i think the job is on its arse. Also i agree any one who isnt vat reg must be mad and are chucking money away. On a plus side im off to mexico in 4 weeks

We have to stick to our guns that was a cheap quote for xlwb job theres no way you could do it any less

But you are always going to have the possibility of guys clearing near the collection point who are going "home" empty so CAN quote low to ensure they get the job.

To assume its an uninsured foreigner doesn't tell the whole story

Stoke to Ascot the other day... I'd have been happy to pay up to £120 (small van), got no local bids, but someone clearing 1/2 mile from collection in the next 15mins and wanted £75! to take em back south.

Bit their hand off... I knew them so it wasn't a gamble

Why did they quote so low? To guarantee they got it

It's not always as straightforward as you think

Sorry metson + WM but if you have enough of your own work to take you somewhere why not take a cheap return load to bring you home, If it pays for your fuel its all good. I know its hard at the moment but you got to take what you can. I have as we speak 432 active jobs on my screens so if i can get a return load even if it is cheap i will get it.

Best way to get work is to be moving to somewhere and get something to go with it, or to get something going back

Sitting at home waiting isn't going to work

I speak to owner drivers all the time and they spend all week bouncing round the country living off Courier Exchange. So as speed as just said get up get out there make your own luck. Or sit there and watch jeremy kyle.

Had a guy the other day who, rather than sit around, gambled and took on a job that didn't really merit being done, but knew it put him in a better area for the possibility of more work (he lives in the sticks)

It worked... He got 2 x jobs from Stansted, one to Leeds, one to Pickering (Yorkshire) and £305 for him

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture

And thats the way to do it :)

That's all very well, when Speed and Deadline are positioned in some of the best places in the country for sameday couriers, wake up you two, come and live up North for a while, your tune would soon change, it's to say what your are saying if there is lot's of work, you amaze me.

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Had a guy the other day who, rather than sit around, gambled and took on a job that didn't really merit being done, but knew it put him in a better area for the possibility of more work (he lives in the sticks)

It worked... He got 2 x jobs from Stansted, one to Leeds, one to Pickering (Yorkshire) and £305 for him

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture

You are correct, but if most subbies are like me, in that if it wasn't for bad luck they would have no luck at all, in reality there is more chance of plaiting sawdust than something like that happening. [glad I'm not a subbie]

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

---

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Had a guy the other day who, rather than sit around, gambled and took on a job that didn't really merit being done, but knew it put him in a better area for the possibility of more work (he lives in the sticks)

It worked... He got 2 x jobs from Stansted, one to Leeds, one to Pickering (Yorkshire) and £305 for him

Sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture

You are correct, but if most subbies are like me, in that if it wasn't for bad luck they would have no luck at all, in reality there is more chance of plaiting sawdust than something like that happening. [glad I'm not a subbie]

Best quote ever, well said Alan

Come on ajm you cant say that.. Do you know how many courier companies are in this area? Have a look and re-think what you just said.

It's nothing to do with the Sarf, it's to do with being in the right place at the right time

If a Leeds lad had been in Stansted then he would've had it off, if you had been in Stoke heading to say Basingstoke, then you too would have had a nice lil double up with the Ascot example

All i'm saying is, if you're relying on exchange sites to get you out of the house, then you may have a long wait, exchange sites are more for aiding the work you have already got

Its a bit like the dominoe effect... Without the finger it doesn't work

You need someone to give you the finger... lol

I do, and you are very well established with loyal customers, Rob your never stuck for an answer but they are not always right, don't know why i'm debating this, because i don't do any subby work, but I will stick up for people who do they will give me a big pat on the back

You're debating this cos it's too cold to be in the garden, and the pub ain't open yet :0)

I don't always have an answer, there are many threads i don't contribute to... And there are always 2 sides to any debate.

All we do is give our twopenneth, its up to the reader to decide whether to heed or ignore

I think I must be one of the biggest carriers of fresh air from one end of the country to the other, ie. On Monday I was coming home from Colchester to Elgin at any time to suit anyone who had a job I could accomplish. I notified my few contacts of what I was doing, one said OK will put you on the database and another about 20 miles away from my point of departure didn't even bother to reply so I am very pleased that I have another form of income to subsidise my non working courier van. And the rates for a small van are abysmal imho.

Tbh mr moray it is tough times for o/d's. Do you use Courier Exchange as well?

I don't as yet, been contemplating using them but very seldom see any jobs put up for my neck of the woods, but they do say most jobs aren't advertised there, but how could I be sure that statement is correct without wasting another few hundred quid To find out?

Mr Moray, are you by any chance in touch with Pronto, as they always seem to be busy?

Mr Moray it might help you find return loads, thats what we use it for. In the last 90 days ive sold £5225 and brought £4596 in return loads. Make your own mind up.

Yes Gas, so far they are my main contact for jobs (few & far between still) and I don't want to go knocking on doors for end used work as the last thing I want to do is tread on his toes obviously, they seem to be the main players in this part of the arctic circle.

We OD's have the same situation in the South East. Business is Dire. Dec thru Feb Terrible. March is going the same way. Only one job so far this week. I have loads of contacts, non have any work to hand out etc. It would seem nobody whats any goods delivered. But haho, just keep trying and hoping. All those in the know seem to think it going to improve. Lets hope so.

Frank Hall Courier Owner Driver said:

---

We OD's have the same situation in the South East. Business is Dire. Dec thru Feb Terrible. March is going the same way. Only one job so far this week. I have loads of contacts, non have any work to hand out etc. It would seem nobody whats any goods delivered. But haho, just keep trying and hoping. All those in the know seem to think it going to improve. Lets hope so.

This is very serious Mr Frank Hall is in what used to be considered a busy and lucrative place to be in this game. Now look at it.

Those 'in the know' may have to pray there is an upturn in trade as they may have more to loose if it doesn't happen than us mere man with a van types

One only has to be realistic to realise that this country is on it's knees, and things will get worse.

Yes there will be certain goods that require urgent deliveries, machines, engines, motors etc, do and will continue to brake down, along with pharmaceutical and Chilled items, necessitating a fast immediate response, however if something is not a 'track stopper' it seems reasonable companies will seek cheaper, not necessarily 'Same day' even, alternatives.

I think one has to be very optimistic that things will get much better.

It's time for many to get real! There are far too many chasing fewer jobs, Yes I keep saying it but it is true!

I agree frank south east is dead my customers arent moving anything either, where abouts u based frank

Backloads to Norfolk don't seem to exist. Gambling on them just hasn't paid off for me.

Well seems this is a doom doom and thrice doom laden thread so time for some optimism

In times of recession firms cut back where they can.

They outsource warehousing, their inhouse delivery guys are laid off, and more people shop online to get better bargains

All give us, the Courier industry, an opportunity

History has shown that our industry actually sees growth when other industries are feeling the pinch

We haven't got our money stuck with stock we can't shift for example, Our overheads are low compared to most industries, so we should be able to avoid the reliance on credit that most industries rely on

Many of todays Courier Companies started in the late 70's when the country was experiencing strikes left right and centre

No Business is recession proof, but the Courier Industry is one that's pretty close

I absolutely agree with Mr Rapid that this country is on its knees, but theres always a call for urgent jobs.. Ive had a few Jobs this week/month , Ive also received loads of enquiries with no takers(which I accept, probably down to price and shopping around) but ive also had a couple that would have been a goer if there was available cover, by that I mean 1 particular job was a 93 miles from Leeds to Notts, 2 Od's were called but not available, ie on the lash or problems at home, called another 2 but the job had gone by this time, after calling the customer they managed to find someone in Leeds to do the job for £80 and asked if we could match or beat, sorry our price is what it is & cannot beat it was the reply.. So theres business's in Leeds quoting 80p a loaded for urgent jobs.

I think too many of us expect the work to come to us, rather than us go looking for it

I've been guilty of it, i've seen the good times, and the bad, been close to giving up but weathered the storm, come back fighting, and have seen steady growth in 26 out of the last 30 months (month/year comparison)

I'm not boasting or trying to rub anyones noses in it... I'm showing that despite it all, it can be done... I'm the proof.

I don't take anything for granted, it could all go tommorro, but i take each day as it comes, pays the bills, and try to keep out of trouble... And you know what? After 14 years and counting, it still gives me a buzz

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

You're debating this cos it's too cold to be in the garden, and the pub ain't open yet :0)

I don't always have an answer, there are many threads i don't contribute to... And there are always 2 sides to any debate.

All we do is give our twopenneth, its up to the reader to decide whether to heed or ignore

It's warm in the pub, just ordered you a pimms Rob

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

... And you know what? After 14 years and counting, it still gives me a buzz

That'll be from too much caffeine in the mornings, it should be wearing off by now

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

---

One only has to be realistic to realise that this country is on it's knees, and things will get worse.

Yes there will be certain goods that require urgent deliveries, machines, engines, motors etc, do and will continue to brake down, along with pharmaceutical and Chilled items, necessitating a fast immediate response, however if something is not a 'track stopper' it seems reasonable companies will seek cheaper, not necessarily 'Same day' even, alternatives.

I think one has to be very optimistic that things will get much better.

It's time for many to get real! There are far too many chasing fewer jobs, Yes I keep saying it but it is true!

Good one Mr rapid I love that sprit thats why those of us with some metal are still here.

I used to help a trainer in a boxing gym here old Bill used to say " Get in there boy never let your mother know your a jibber"... NEVER QUIT!

Bob... I've read and re read Alans thread and nowhere can I find anything remotely optimistic as you seem to suggest

If anything he's suggesting things are shite, that things are going to get worse, and doubts anything will get much better anytime soon

So what is it you're reading?

Bob been reading 2013 courier bible

I introduce a note of optimism, which seems to have been completely missed

Seems to be an awful lot of selective reading, missed points and misinterpretations by some on here

But someone being pessimistic (albeit with an element of truth) is taken as the one being optimistic?

I really do wish that when answering on a thread the writer would actually read the thread properly

Its a bit like turning to the back page of a book and thinking you've read the whole book

May I suggest maybe starting with something a little more basic link text

No. 20 looks like a good un

Hi Metson Express. To answer your question. Based in Rainham Kent. Medway area.

Certainly NOT cheaper to run a Bike!

People do not realise that a bike is more expensive than a van to run and maintain properly.

2 new tyres just cost me £285 and if lucky will last about 5k miles.

No more economical on Fuel either.

I agree with you Gary, not worth quoting cheap!

And you need to factor in the re-fuelling timeas well. Not many bikes can get from Yorkshire to Southampton without a fuel stop.

At a life expectancy of 5K miles you be either buying the wrong tyres or running the wrong bike for couriering

MK Bikes said:

---

At a life expectancy of 5K miles you be either buying the wrong tyres or running the wrong bike for couriering

OK maybe I change them before I really need to legally, I know I could buy other brands with more longevity but I do what I feel safe doing. No such thing as wrong bike! If it does the job and more importantly for me, safely, that's what I run with.

I certainly won't use cheap tyres. My choice and my choice how I price jobs accordingly.

Not cheap tyres, dual compounds and the wrong bike would be one whose costs are twice as high My rear tyre will last around 10-12K and the front 12-15K costing about £230

Wrong bike meaning a bike that you cant get dual compound tyres for

So the answer to is this job on it's arse is riding on the price of motorbike tyres?

They were dual compound Michelin on both Hayabusa and T Max

I know I could get tyres like you suggest but I choose to use the ones I feel happier on.

Therefore my charges are reflected accordingly. If someone is not happy with my prices tough! I certainly would not buy cheap tyres just so I could make it more attractive to attract Bike work.

Generally the customers who ask for a bike are ones that we have worked for for years and are more than happy to pay what I ask as they know their goods will get there in most cases quicker than a van. ;)

Thread has [as usual] gone slightly off Topic Gary and admin maybe should close it!

I think you answered your own question in your opening of this thread though

Well to take it off thread even more...

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

So the answer to is this job on it's arse is riding on the price of motorbike tyres?

Its quite relevant to the discussion as it centres on costs if correct price were charged in the first place these people wouldnt have to expect other folk to do jobs for very close to cost

MK Bikes said:

---

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

So the answer to is this job on it's arse is riding on the price of motorbike tyres?

Its quite relevant to the discussion as it centres on costs if correct price were charged in the first place these people wouldnt have to expect other folk to do jobs for very close to cost

That's not my doing my old mucker

Maybe a motorcycle more suited to courier work would be the answer? BMW K75's etc run on pushbike tyres and are much cheaper!

AJM sameday Couriers said:

That's not my doing my old mucker

There appears to be more & more on course for self destruction with regard to pricing

So what was the outcome of this thread.

BusinessBuddy said:

---

So what was the outcome of this thread.

The outcome was nobody got involved, so seems there happy working for 27 pence per mile, I'm not waisting anymore time on it, has I don't do a great deal of courier work these day's so we can call it the END

To summarise

Are rates too low... Yes Is anyone doing anything about it... no

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

To summarise

Are rates too low... Yes Is anyone doing anything about it... No

Yes i'm doing something about it, I won't do any of the so called subbie work with the insulting out of date prices, so yes

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

To summarise

Are rates too low... Yes Is anyone doing anything about it... No

Why do you always speak for everyone else? I won't drop my price, and its getting asked more & more frequently usually by one off customers, I charge what I believe is a reasonable rate given the fuel increases, I have increased my prices year on year in line with costs (with exception of last year) which has enabled me to pay my bikers a good rate (inexcess of a "good" rate recently quoted on here). I won't offer a price match (as very many do). I am lucky that many of my customers have been with me for a number of years and place more of a value on service as opposed to cost's, I have recently picked up a customer by recommendation who has set up an account and has yet to ask "How much do you charge?".

AJM sameday Couriers said:

Yes i'm doing something about it, I won't do any of the so called subbie work with the insulting out of date prices, so yes

Well Done!

Heard yesterday that City Link in Trafford Park is closing down on Friday. Is this good or bad? Will there be more work or is it a sign of a downturn?

Sorry MK have you got out the bed the wrong side this morning? The tone of the thread is all about low rates so how the * do you think my answer is speaking for everyone? It is merely summarising what most on here were talking about And it was meant in a jovial way

So up yer bum

Can you refrain from saying the word bum, thanks

Bad experience?

Due to the severe lack of work and the poor rates offered for my size of van and the fact I have been offered more work at sea I am seriously thinking about parking the van out of my sight, cutting my losses and start earning some real money again. Didn't intend to give up so easily but I honestly cannot see any improvement any time soon and the budget I allocated is not a bottomless pit. IF things improve before I snuff it I could always come back (I think, maybe).

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Bad experience?

No, not the way your implying, quite the apposite thanks for your concern

I think your location plus the fact that it's the quieter part of the year makes it difficult for anyone to make a living without a reserve to fall back on Unfortunatley there are many pro's having to chuck the towel in or thinkin about it

Unless you get a lucky break I can't see much of a change on the horizon as Mr Rapid pointed out earlier in this thread

I also don't think rates have much to do with it... It's the lack of work more likely to scupper peoples business plans

moray couriers said:

---

Due to the severe lack of work and the poor rates offered for my size of van and the fact I have been offered more work at sea I am seriously thinking about parking the van out of my sight, cutting my losses and start earning some real money again. Didn't intend to give up so easily but I honestly cannot see any improvement any time soon and the budget I allocated is not a bottomless pit. IF things improve before I snuff it I could always come back (I think, maybe).

But you where going to have depots in every City, did you not have a business plan?

Thts MY opinion before anyone suggests i'm hijackin theirs... lol

Cant recall ever saying that AJ, all I wanted to do was earn enough so that I could spend a bit more time with my family at home instead of being away for weeks or months at a time. Yes I had a business plan but alas the things I was told when researching on whether to jump in or not have not come to fruition. Ie. Volume as Speed says. Running that little sand barge over the last few weeks from Fingerinhoe to Deptford grossed me £1000 per week on average, so what would you do?

You have to do what you feel is right for you, you can sit a play onhere all day and earn jack, I only play at this now i'm heading for early retirement

Family v Income is always a difficult one, and one I think we tend to lose, and don't realise until its too late

We tend to put value on things that really don't matter

Some get a 2nd chance and put true value on family

You can't put a value on that

I know plenty of supposed well off fools who emotionally are worth absolutley nothing

Tiz all about getting the balnce right isn't it

021 SAMEDAY said:

---

Certainly NOT cheaper to run a Bike!

People do not realise that a bike is more expensive than a van to run and maintain properly.

2 new tyres just cost me £285 and if lucky will last about 5k miles.

No more economical on Fuel either.

I agree with you Gary, not worth quoting cheap!

And you need to factor in the re-fuelling timeas well. Not many bikes can get from Yorkshire to Southampton without a fuel stop.

Ah well my Triumph does 130-280 miles per tank or 35-74 mpg depending on speed, the Honda Pan European averages 54 mpg and 230-300+ per tank again depends on speed, so southampton not an issue and takes 3-4hrs from Yorkshire, TBH anywhere isnt a problem for that matter on 1 tank, takes 5 mins to fill and off ya go.

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

To summarise

Are rates too low... Yes Is anyone doing anything about it... No

Sounds like its talking for everyone

Springer Express Couriers said:

---

Maybe a motorcycle more suited to courier work would be the answer? BMW K75's etc run on pushbike tyres and are much cheaper!

Yes the tyre may be cheaper, but the K's are very unreliable and breakdown alot..

If everyone stopped trying to undercut everyone with the sole objective of clearing on an exchange (regardless of price to subbie) we might be getting somewhere.

MK Bikes said:

---

If everyone stopped trying to undercut everyone with the sole objective of clearing on an exchange (regardless of price to subbie) we might be getting somewhere.

I agree.

Trouble is too many just do not have a clue :)

This is a long thread LOL

Tony and Alun, not sure as to why your adding to this thread, as it really doesnt affect you both that much.

Cos they are the font of all knowledge

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Cos they are the font of all knowledge

Says Mr Know it all LOL

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

Tony and Alun, not sure as to why your adding to this thread, as it really doesnt affect you both that much.

The jobs on its arse doesnt affect me?

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Cos they are the font of all knowledge

.. And you know it

www. Inner-peace. org. Uk have a look at this please and take note

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

www. Inner-peace. org. Uk have a look at this please and take note

Pity you aren't able to close a thread [or edit] that you start. it certainly has dragged on :)

Hope you have had the answers you wanted Gary?

There is still no solid answer, my next topic is the digestive system and what problems can arise once you get over the age of fourty

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

There is still no solid answer, my next topic is the digestive system and what problems can arise once you get over the age of fourty

LOL

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

021 SAMEDAY said:

---

Certainly NOT cheaper to run a Bike!

People do not realise that a bike is more expensive than a van to run and maintain properly.

2 new tyres just cost me £285 and if lucky will last about 5k miles.

No more economical on Fuel either.

I agree with you Gary, not worth quoting cheap!

And you need to factor in the re-fuelling timeas well. Not many bikes can get from Yorkshire to Southampton without a fuel stop.

Ah well my Triumph does 130-280 miles per tank or 35-74 mpg depending on speed, the Honda Pan European averages 54 mpg and 230-300+ per tank again depends on speed, so southampton not an issue and takes 3-4hrs from Yorkshire, TBH anywhere isnt a problem for that matter on 1 tank, takes 5 mins to fill and off ya go.

021 SAMEDAY said:

---

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

021 SAMEDAY said:

---

Certainly NOT cheaper to run a Bike!

People do not realise that a bike is more expensive than a van to run and maintain properly.

2 new tyres just cost me £285 and if lucky will last about 5k miles.

No more economical on Fuel either.

I agree with you Gary, not worth quoting cheap!

And you need to factor in the re-fuelling timeas well. Not many bikes can get from Yorkshire to Southampton without a fuel stop.

Ah well my Triumph does 130-280 miles per tank or 35-74 mpg depending on speed, the Honda Pan European averages 54 mpg and 230-300+ per tank again depends on speed, so southampton not an issue and takes 3-4hrs from Yorkshire, TBH anywhere isnt a problem for that matter on 1 tank, takes 5 mins to fill and off ya go.

I can hear somebody snoring

Looking at the amount of people who have joined MT Van over the past week I think the answer is yes

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

Looking at the amount of people who have joined MT Van over the past week I think the answer is yes

Think your right Gary, but you will get accused of spreading doom and gloom.

Some do not like the truth!

Rates will always be too low for somebody, it's a no win argument

I assume everyone who quotes for anything i have is happy with their quote, otherwsie why quote it in the 1st place.

I don't negotiate, I pay higher than i would like with some, but some quote lower on others, and then I move onto the next job

This argument has been going on ever since I came onto the scene in 98, and no doubt well before that too

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

---

Rates will always be too low for somebody, it's a no win argument

I assume everyone who quotes for anything i have is happy with their quote, otherwsie why quote it in the 1st place.

I don't negotiate, I pay higher than i would like with some, but some quote lower on others, and then I move onto the next job

This argument has been going on ever since I came onto the scene in 98, and no doubt well before that too

Rob you keep posting on here, so I think you could be feeling guilty.

Oi... I'm not the only contributor

Its cos it's a hot topic

Work is out there for those that want it enough.

Work is out there, but correct rates certainly are not!

And judging by alot of contributions on this thread many are NOT gettoing the work!

Cant wait for these extra countries joining the 'UNION' and getting the next ferry over to 'good old blighty' to run their tatty old sprinters at 20pplm. Happy days.

If are prices haven't increased by at at least 30% in the last en years then i'm afraid it's on its arse, let have a look at what has increased by more than that amount, fuel, food, holidays, servics like plumbers, electricians, dental charges, bus fares, clothes, sameday courier costs no, people working for poor money whether for themselves or doing subbie work, running older vans, if that's not on it's arse I don't know what is, I overtook a 2003 combo yesterday with the words joes couriers uk, Europe on the side, I wouldn't have gone t the corner shop in it, so much for image.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

If are prices haven't increased by at at least 30% in the last en years then I'm afraid it's on its arse...

Unless you're someone at the very top I don't believe wages in many industries have increased much if at all in the last 10 years.

I have just had another serious look at the finances since I started just a few months ago and I can only say this... Anyone want to buy a decent Connect? I love the whole aspect of the job but as far as I'm concerned I no longer wish to constantly pay out and earn next to nowt.

My previous jobs wages had increased by about 8% over the last ten years

So as someone who is still doing his research, is this job on its arse? Is it poss to make a wage on subbie work alone? I live in Lancashire, so i'm guessing i'll have a lot of competition? Any help or advice much appreciated as always. gareth

I think this particular thread says a lot about where we are. There are lots of differencies, lots of varying opinions, disagreements, A bit of sarcasm, and banter....none of which have needed editing, the topic is still open despite differing opinions.

This is what a forum is all about... This thread has been allowed to evolve..

So what has changed since then?

I'll leave you to answer that yourselves

[Admin: Please don't take this off topic, you're guilty of the very thing you dislike. I'll leave this here (for now), nothing more off topic though please.]

I think most threads become crossed, as they are all related to poor rates/low prices, self promotion, ins cover,

A little bit of history for you, in the late 70's to mid 80's a lot of redundancies happened in the UK due to miners, printers, production etc being laid off with redundancy money.

At the time it was 'boom time' for same-day courier work so a lot of out of work bought a van with redundancy became a courier and started undercutting the big boys and established courier companies who then had PAYE and subby mix on there books.

This drove down rates companies could charge therefore drove down the rate they could pay own subbies, the industry has never recovered, then came exchange sites trying to recover the situation by offering backloads etc...

Just my view :)

It's a sad state of affairs when the guy doing the job after all there expenses taken out actually earns less money than the company who subbing the job, that's why I have no interest in working for anybody else.

City Connect Couriers Ltd said:

---

A little bit of history for you, in the late 70's to mid 80's a lot of redundancies happened in the UK due to miners, printers, production etc being laid off with redundancy money.

At the time it was 'boom time' for same-day courier work so a lot of out of work bought a van with redundancy became a courier and started undercutting the big boys and established courier companies who then had PAYE and subby mix on there books.

This drove down rates companies could charge therefore drove down the rate they could pay own subbies, the industry has never recovered, then came exchange sites trying to recover the situation by offering backloads etc...

Just my view :)

Myself and many I know were still working paye with company bikes as late as late 90's.

What is putting prices down are people wanting to cover the whole county with no vehicles or very few who charge end users a cheap rate and pay subbbies next to nothing because they are desperate for the work that these forwarders are taking from their areas.

If it wasn't for these people the work would stay local for local couriers earning a decent rate.

An interesting point of view Nick but what if the customer wants one courier to cover their work Nationally, and doesn't want to have to deal with several localised couriers up and down the country?

Are we saying we'll let those contracts go to the multi nationals, or maybe allow the smaller guys to compete by having access to a network of sub contractors. Does that not then bring extra work to us all, whereby the alternative is they go to the big boys and none of us get a look in?

Always 2 ways of looking at things...i know where you're coming from but its not always so black and white

Its true its not so black and white, I understand large contract get preferential rates and I understand that your local customer may require collections all over the country but when you have people based it one area of the country offering couriers all over the country using their main USP as price this undoubtedly has an effect on local prices.

... And service

Oh absolutely, but there's no need to give preferential rates. Some just want to deal with one person, happy in the knowledge it'll get done, and done properly. Who can put a price on that?

It could be argued that the "big boys" actually do us a favour by reminding customers just what having a good courier is really worth. Being big doesn't necessarily mean you're better, as the multi nationals prove day in and day out... Lol

Service as Tony says, and thats why we're all here isn't it? To offer a better service than the big boys, whether that's local, national or international.

There will always be those that think undercutting is the way to succeed, and there are others who realise sometimes it's about a little bit more than that

Speed Couriers Nationwide said:

---

An interesting point of view Nick but what if the customer wants one courier to cover their work Nationally, and doesn't want to have to deal with several localised couriers up and down the country?

Are we saying we'll let those contracts go to the multi nationals, or maybe allow the smaller guys to compete by having access to a network of sub contractors. Does that not then bring extra work to us all, whereby the alternative is they go to the big boys and none of us get a look in?

Always 2 ways of looking at things...i know where you're coming from but its not always so black and white

Of course you can get a customer wanting national coverage, this is where getting on the pone or using an exchange comes in. People with few or no vans and no interest in being on the road actually advertising national coverage, getting work with a usp of low rates and then subbing it out at rates that make the actual drivers very little money is a bad way to go about it, the only people making money is the monkey with 4 phone lines in their virtual office.

Yes, but its up to couriers not to give in to those kind of "monkies" isn't it?

I still maintain you can compete at a rate that is competitive AND still have enough to pay the courier a decent rate too. There will always be those that go for price and price alone, but there are also those that value service as well as price, and those that value the courier, without which none of us have a business!

There are minicabs, There are black cabs and there are chauffeurs... And there is room for them all... And generally speaking you get what you pay for.

There is a lot of good guys who pay decent rate, but there are guys who pay peanuts, as long as there are people willing to work for peanuts, the job will always be on its ass, as the guys working for peanuts, helps the guys paying peanuts to under cut the good guys who pay good rates, as you all know,

ILKLEY EXPRESS said:

---

There is a lot of good guys who pay decent rate, but there are guys who pay peanuts, as long as there are people willing to work for peanuts, the job will always be on its ass, as the guys working for peanuts, helps the guys paying peanuts to under cut the good guys who pay good rates, as you all know,

Here here

But then the noobs need to know, how do you tell them?

You try to tell them to be wary of the people paying low rates and posts get deleted on some forums in some misguided 'for the benefit of all' bull when in reality it is supporting low pay and low payers.

Now this is what a forum is about.. Nick Theres an old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink"

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

---

Now this is what a forum is about.. Nick Theres an old saying, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink"

Agreed.. This is what a forum is about

And no this job is NOT on its arse... It's just more and more difficult to avoid the tripwire

Gas, why have you gone and bought a horse?

... And why is it not thirsty?

MK Bikes said:

---

... And why is it not thirsty?

Because its hungry.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

---

Gas, why have you gone and bought a horse?

Cause its cheaper to run... lol