VAT or Non VAT

Seems a recent thread has gone off subject so I thought I'd start this one here

VAT registered?

Tiz a no brainer as every single expense incurred by a courier is vatable

On that basis you'd be mad not to

In terms of the figures, then yes, it seems to make sense.

But what has put me off is another business in our family, which is VAT registered. The accounts take forever and usually require an accountant's fee.

How long do other VAT registered ODs spend doing their accounts? And do you hire an accountant?

Quite agree and the VAT return is a doddle if your on top of your paperwork.

Agreed with Speed. Keep my accounts up to date daily when I can. I only use an accountant for my year end.

Reposted on this thread.

I agree about the accounts software. I paid £5.00 for sage at a computer fair. Tells me all I need to know at the click of a button. How anyone in this business cannot be vat registered is beyond me! If you have a turnover of, for example, £50,000.00 with costs of £30,000.00 you are giving the vat man £5,000.00 a year.

ZENITH Courier Services said:

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In terms of the figures, then yes, it seems to make sense.

But what has put me off is another business in our family, which is VAT registered. The accounts take forever and usually require an accountant's fee.

How long do other VAT registered ODs spend doing their accounts? And do you hire an accountant?

As i posted in the other thread, quickbooks is a very easy to use accounts program that costs about £100.

At the end of the quarter, one click of the mouse and your return is sent electronically to HMRC.

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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VAT registered?

Tiz a no brainer as every single expense incurred by a courier is vatable

On that basis you'd be mad not to

Not strictly true, Congestion Zone is not, if I remember correctly the term is 'outside of the scope of VAT'. Insurances are subject to their own tax which is not VAT.

Although, in general I agree, seems a no brainer if your work is mostly business to business. I would say it may be a different case if your work is mostly to private customers but I've not bothered to try the sums there.

I'm also in agreement with those saying it's simple enough, as long as your paperwork is kept in a sensible order. Just invested in Quickbooks myself (£150 inc VAT from Staples) and from what I've got to grips with so far it's excellent. Says it can 'eFile your VAT returns directly to HMRC' and the reports are very good, quick and easy to see who owes what etc and how much work you get from whom.

Whilst quick books is good, I prefer Xero all software and records in the cloud. Bank reconciliation done auto vat auto. Raise invoices anywhere and email direct to customer. Check it out just google Xero.

It certainly is a no brainer, and you should also look at joining the flat rate scheme. Then all you do is pay 10% of your gross (VAT inclusive) turnover. You even get a 1% discount for the first year so then it's only 9%. You can even still reclaim VAT on any capital purchases over £2000, which helps if you buy your own vans like I do.

I tried out some example sums on the flat rate principal and it didn't look as though it was that good, better than not being VAT reg'd but, doing the proper return looked better on paper to me.

I joined the flat rate scheme when I first registered back in 2002. I was hundreds of pounds worse off, in my first year, than if I had been on standard rate so I switched back. I think it's ok if you are selling with vat but your expenses are mainly vat free. Certainly not the case in this business.

For you to be worse off under the flat rate scheme your VAT ratable costs would need to account for nearly half your turnover.

E. G. Your invoice total is £1000 plus VAT, so £1200. Your costs in generating that income = £500, of which VAT would be £83.33.

Under the flat rate scheme (disregarding the 1% discount) you would pay £120, keeping £80 of the VAT collected. Under the normal rate you would deduct the £83.33 so pay £116.67.

If your costs were only £20 less it would be even stevens between the two schemes.

For me my costs are a good deal less than half my turnover so it works well for me.

Surely it can't be that difficult? Each week total up vat charged on your invoices, Total up VAT charged on expenses (your fuel receipts etc) Take one from the other put that amount of money in a saving account, submit return on line when required

Quickbooks does it all for you including filling in the returns, And a fuel card will help with paperwork,

The only downside is that they randomly inspect peoples books and if your trying to be clever they tend to rip your head off!

Whichever scheme you use the fact that the vat on fuel can be reclaimed, which is anything from 25-40% of your turnover, makes it a no brainer for me

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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Whichever scheme you use the fact that the vat on fuel can be reclaimed, which is anything from 25-40% of your turnover, makes it a no brainer for me

I don't think you can claim back the VAT on the flat rate scheme Rob.

Check this out to see whether to be vat registered or not.

Well as you have gathered probably hence this thread, Im not VAT registered, I have discussed this in depth with my accountant on a few occassions, and in her words, its not really beneficial, and by the sounds of you lot with your extra hours of VAT book keeping and fancy software that costs, it probably puts the nail in the coffin for me. I do the book keeping, including adding all receipt no's to the bank statements, so less for the accountant to charge (not that she does) Yes If I was running a fleet and spending lots of money on fuel, servicing blah blah blah then I would have considered it, but I do most stuff in house to keep costs down.

It doesnt make any difference to End User Company whether you registered or not. I have asked this to new and regular Clients, Including an accountant the other day, his words was "for what you do, stay where you are"

And the beauty about not being vat registered, private end users will use you rather than a vat reg Courier.

The down side to this of course, is if you sub to a vat reg courier, this doesnt leave much meat on the bone, unless a price has been agreed of course.

But I can offset what I buy such as tools, equipment bla blah against taxable earnings (if thats the word to use), Oh forgot to mention.. Helmets are classed as safety equipment, therefore NO VAT on them! So cant claim anyway.. But can offset it against Taxable earnings...

Don't get me wrong, I know penty of drivers that aren't VAT registered, but they tend to be those that work for just the one company, so aren't looking to sub anything out... Which must be a killer for anyone who isn't vat registered

If you're turning more than 77k you have to anyway, so you may as well do it from the offset, as thats just shy of £1500 a week

Vat is another tax, vat returns every 3 months and you have guidelines, and your fined with interest if 1 minute late.. your 20% more expensive, there are alot who dont want to be registered just for the aggro.

Yes you can claim VAT on the purchase of your van for business use. Now claiming vat on a motorcycle thats a different ball game.

Plus government guidelines state 45p per mile running cost and bike 20p as an employee, not that has any thing to do with Vat or what we do of course, but theres a big difference between vat registered van couriers and bike couriers and there are a few of us who arn't registered.

I only suffer vat on small amount of fuel on business mileage, tyres

I do the quarterly VAT for Peter and it takes less than two hours.

1: Make sure that every time that you receive an invoice payment put aside the portion of the invoice which is VAT.

Ie: (Invoice Amount/120)*20 = VAT to set aside.

This way, no matter how your VAT works out you know for a fact that the money will be there.

2: At the end of your VAT period, download the whole of your last 3 months transactions from your online bank statement to a spreadsheet. If you don't have online access to your accounts then sort it out.

3: Run through all the transactions and identify and delete all those which have nothing to do with VAT either paid or received.

4: Take out all transactions that are just business transfers from one account you own to another.

5: Filter out all the income transactions, copy and paste them to a new page in your spreadsheet. Rename this page Income. 6: Do the same for your expense transactions. Rename this page Expenses.

7: Get rid of all columns which are of no interest: sort code, account number, etc.

8: On the expenses page, move to the empty cell to the right of the total of the sum received. Type in the formula to calculate the ex VAT total(amount received divided by 120 and multiplied by 100. In the next column type in the formula to calculate the VAT (amount received divided by 120 and then multiplied by 20).

9: Highlight both of these columns and use the "Fill down" function of your spreadsheet to complete the whole page in one fell swoop.

10: Do exactly the same for your income page.

11: Underneath these three columns on both your expenses and income pages, type in a formula to provide you with the totals of each column.

12: Now create a new page which uses the appropriate totals from these pages to calculate your VAT.

Now, spend 2 mins logging on to your VAT online and plug in the required figures.

Next. Look at the total amount of VAT that you have paid into your VAT account over that period and from that total subtract the amount of VAT which you are to pay to the VAT and whatever the difference is the amount that's yours to spend as you wish.

Once you have created this spreadsheet save it as a template and reuse it next quarter and it'll take you even less time.

Alternatively, I will be happy to process your VAT returns for the nominal sum of £50 per quarter. :-)

As for accountants telling you it's not worth it! Please remember many accountants are quite simply accountants. They are not businessmen as such.

Our last quarter saw £350 back in our pockets. How can that not be worth a couple of hours of effort?

Regards to all,

Scott.

Incidentally, the majority of the two hours is just doing a run through the receipts to make sure that there are no stray receipts which were paid cash and therefor would not show up in the online accounts. Also running through the physical invoices to ensure that where applicable any part of an invoice payment which did not attract VAT (ie: London Congestion Charge) is then amended on the Income spreadsheet to adjust the figures accordingly.

Scott.

Scott.. accounting would not be a big change for me. But in hinde site you are effectively an unpaid tax collecter, but you can be fined if your late, spend extra time doing your books just for vat.. there are alot of down falls for being vat registered, its not profitable being vat registered, and you lose the domestic customers as well, as my percentage is 70/30 seventy being business. just cause you add stealth tax this doesnt make your service any better.. Im happy where I am.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

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Scott.. accounting would not be a big change for me. But in hinde site you are effectively an unpaid tax collecter, but you can be fined if your late, spend extra time doing your books just for vat.. there are alot of down falls for being vat registered, its not profitable being vat registered, and you lose the domestic customers as well, as my percentage is 70/30 seventy being business. just cause you add stealth tax this doesnt make your service any better.. Im happy where I am.

I agree with Gas,, and i'm not vat reg, ok I lose out when I buy A new van, but I have managed ok since 1998, my other half does my books and has advised me against vat reg, I know a few people in this game & they hate been vat reg

That's cos they probably spend it as they go, then haven't got it when its due to HMRC... lol

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

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Scott.. accounting would not be a big change for me. But in hinde site you are effectively an unpaid tax collecter, but you can be fined if your late, spend extra time doing your books just for vat.. there are alot of down falls for being vat registered, its not profitable being vat registered, and you lose the domestic customers as well, as my percentage is 70/30 seventy being business. just cause you add stealth tax this doesnt make your service any better.. Im happy where I am.

Hi Gas,

I can hardly consider myself an unpaid tax collecter when I receive £350 for two hours work.

As for being a stealth tax, I am not getting in to a discussion of any one persons views on the rights or wrongs of VAT.

With regards to fines for being late. Well, it's so easy to do, and you have two months from the end of every quarter to submit your return (I believe) that there really is no reason why you should ever be late or incur any penalties.

With regards to domestic customers, we don't have any nor would we want any. We prefer to deal only with business clients. However I do conceed your point that this may raise the price too much to your non VAT registered clients.

If you are happy as you are, then by all means stick with it. My post was merely intended to highlight not only how quickly and simply VAT returns can be, but also to highlight that for many owner drivers out there it would be a change to their business which would instantly boost their annual income by over £3000.

Being VAT registered is definitely not the right business decision for all, but neither is there any need to fear it or worry about it.

Best regards,

Scott.

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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That's cos they probably spend it as they go, then haven't got it when its due to HMRC... Lol

I agree with you, but it's hard to save up for the tax man, knowing that it's going to cloth and feed people who are work shy

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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That's cos they probably spend it as they go, then haven't got it when its due to HMRC... Lol

I'm saying nothing on this one Rob :-).

Scott.

I would agree though that anyone who is currently working in this industry but for the moment is living hand to mouth probably should not register for VAT as that big chunk of cash could be very tempting to dig into just once too often.

Scott.

Thank you scott for your input, and yes it works for some but not for others, maybe when Im nearer the threshold I will consider it. But until then it a no brainer for me to stay where I am.. and will have to be choosy when using a vat registered subby, when agreeing on price.. :-)

ZENITH Courier Services said:

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In terms of the figures, then yes, it seems to make sense.

But what has put me off is another business in our family, which is VAT registered. The accounts take forever and usually require an accountant's fee.

How long do other VAT registered ODs spend doing their accounts? And do you hire an accountant?

We have an accountant to do our annual income tax return as this is quite a hefty amount of paperwork. When we went VAT registered we had him do our first VAT return as the first quarter return would also include some invoices which were not liable for VAT.

As such we decided it would be best to ask our accountant to do this for us. Since then, knowing that every invoice attracts VAT and only a few of our expenses do not attract VAT makes it simple for us to do it.

Once in a while though, we ask our accountant to double check our figures before we submit the return. Just to be sure.

For this he just charges us a very nominal sum.

Regards,

Scott.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

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Thank you scott for your input, and yes it works for some but not for others, maybe when Im nearer the threshold I will consider it. But until then it a no brainer for me to stay where I am.. and will have to be choosy when using a vat registered subby, when agreeing on price.. :-)

If you are using subbies you'll find that the majority of them will be VAT registered. If you are subbing out work regularly then that is as good a reason as any to register.

Scott.

Scott, I dont sub alot out, but if and when I do to cover a jobs then I try to use Non vat couriers(more in there pocket) or get an agreed price from a vat reg courier so both benefit from it.

But this really is applicable to those who buy new vans, and spend huge amounts on fuel, I certainly do the mileage dont get me wrong, but I claim for mileage against taxable profit, vat is only on fuel, tyres and a few other bits and peices.. The Factual figures are for fuel only the rest is telling. todays prices vat on fuel evens out for every £28.25 spent @ 1.38ltr its £4.71 vat so for every £113 spent thats £18.84vat, thats £188.40vat on every £1130 spent at todays rate, but at this point I would have covered 10,400+ miles (ok it may take a couple of months to do these miles), take into account there may be dead miles so 3/4's of the mileage will be chargeable to the end user,take into account prices vary on the forecourt throughout the country as well. Yes its £188 but Ive also earnt say £8K so is it worth me claiming vat back, definately not!

In a nutshell. Extra cost for software, I dont want the responsibility of banking HMRC's money, penalties for late submissions, Guidelines, extra cost for accountant to look over your work, extra hrs book keeping, you charge 20% more.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

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Scott, I dont sub alot out, but if and when I do to cover a jobs then I try to use Non vat couriers(more in there pocket) or get an agreed price from a vat reg courier so both benefit from it.

But this really is applicable to those who buy new vans, and spend huge amounts on fuel, I certainly do the mileage dont get me wrong, but I claim for mileage against taxable profit, vat is only on fuel, tyres and a few other bits and peices.. The Factual figures are for fuel only the rest is telling. todays prices vat on fuel evens out for every £28.25 spent @ 1.38ltr its £4.71 vat so for every £113 spent thats £18.84vat, thats £188.40vat on every £1130 spent at todays rate, but at this point I would have covered 10,400+ miles (ok it may take a couple of months to do these miles), take into account there may be dead miles so 3/4's of the mileage will be chargeable to the end user,take into account prices vary on the forecourt throughout the country as well. Yes its £188 but Ive also earnt say £8K so is it worth me claiming vat back, definately not!

In a nutshell. Extra cost for software, I dont want the responsibility of banking HMRC's money, penalties for late submissions, Guidelines, extra cost for accountant to look over your work, extra hrs book keeping, you charge 20% more.

Very well put

Partial Quote!

"In a nutshell. Extra cost for software, I dont want the responsibility of banking HMRC's money, penalties for late submissions, Guidelines, extra cost for accountant to look over your work, extra hrs book keeping, you charge 20% more."

Extra cost of software: Not required. A basic "free" spreadsheet application is all that's required!

Guidelines? Not sure what you are referring to here.

Extra accountancy fees: I've already shown that this is not true.

Extra hours book keeping: I've already shown that 2 hours of book keeping every three months will earn you about £1400 per year. (Made a slight mistake in my earlier post by saying £3000 per year).

You charge 20% extra: True, but if your customers are VAT registered then not only is it not a problem to them since they can then offset it from their own VAT liability, they prefer it. Not good for clients who are private domain, but then any loss will be compensated by an increase in business orders from VAT registered clients.

The final benefit is that effectively "almost" everything that you buy in relation to your business is 20% cheaper.

Your monthly vehicle payment (where applicable). Your fuel. Road Tolls. All maintenance costs. Mechanical bills. Windscreens. Tyres. Invoice paper. Printer ink. Computer equipment. Etc, etc, etc.

In fact, the only things we pay for / purchase for our business that do not attract VAT are bank fees, insurance and the London Congestion Charge.

As for the dead miles part, your claiming back the VAT on EVERY SINGLE LITRE whether it was charged to a customer or not.

Quite simply put, being VAT registered instantly decreases your operational overheads by 20%, and takes less than 2 hours every 3 months to do it.

Eg:

In our area, the cheapest fuel right now is £1.427 per litre. We average around 90,000 miles per year and get 11miles to the litre. Which at current price would be an annual fuel cost of £11,675.46.

Being VAT registered our fuel costs us 20% less. £1.89 per litre. At 90,000 miles that's £9729.55.

Saving of £1945.91.

We save £40 per month on the van payment. So that's another £480 per year.

Total so far, £2425.91.

If a person was working cards in with a company and was offered a pay rise of £2425.91 per year if they did another 8 hours of work every year (one working day!). Just over £303 per hour! I'd call them mad!

As has been said earlier by others in this thread,,,,,,

It's a no brainer :-).

Scott.

As i see it the only way not being vat regstered works is i you deal with eBayers

And thankfully we don't

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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As i see it the only way not being vat regstered works is i you deal with eBayers

And thankfully we don't

Hear, hear!

Peter Riley said:

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Partial Quote!

"In a nutshell. Extra cost for software, I dont want the responsibility of banking HMRC's money, penalties for late submissions, Guidelines, extra cost for accountant to look over your work, extra hrs book keeping, you charge 20% more."

The final benefit is that effectively "almost" everything that you buy in relation to your business is 20% cheaper.

Your monthly vehicle payment (where applicable).N/A Your fuel.Yes 60mpg Road Tolls.N/A All maintenance costs.N/A Mechanical bills. N/A Windscreens. N/A Tyres.Yes Invoice paper.dont use much Printer ink.Dont use much Computer equipment.Every 5 yrs Etc, etc, etc.

In fact, the only things we pay for / purchase for our business that do not attract VAT are bank fees, insurance and the London Congestion Charge.SO NOT ALOT TO CLAIM FOR A BIKEY

As for the dead miles part, your claiming back the VAT on EVERY SINGLE LITRE whether it was charged to a customer or not.THIS IS WHY I CHARGE THE END USER ENOUGH TO COVER THIS

Quite simply put, being VAT registered instantly decreases your operational overheads by 20%, and takes less than 2 hours every 3 months to do it.NO IVE SAVED MYSELF A HEADACHE

Eg:

In our area, the cheapest fuel right now is £1.427 per litre. We average around 90,000 miles per year and get 11miles to the litre. Which at current price would be an annual fuel cost of £11,675.46. I CAN SEE WHY YOUR VAT REGISTERED BUT ITS NOT SUITABLE FOR ME

Being VAT registered our fuel costs us 20% less. £1.89 per litre. Where are you going for your fuel? At 90,000 miles that's £9729.55.

Saving of £1945.91.

We save £40 per month on the van payment. So that's another £480 per year.

Total so far, £2425.91.

If a person was working cards in with a company and was offered a pay rise of £2425.91 per year if they did another 8 hours of work every year (one working day!). Just over £303 per hour! I'd call them mad!

As has been said earlier by others in this thread,,,,,,

It's a no brainer :-).

Scott.

"Your monthly vehicle payment (where applicable).

Your fuel. Road Tolls. All maintenance costs. Mechanical bills. Windscreens. Tyres. Invoice paper. Printer ink. Computer equipment."

Your currently working on van prices.. Im not in a van Im on a bike, I dont pay tolls, I dont pay congestion charges, I certainly dont pay mechanical bills, Yes I pay for tyres, But I pay trade price on all my parts :-), so for me I like to offset this cost against my taxable earnings... Simples.. Its good for those who are spending a fortune but not for others as is my case..

Or is it here, here? I've never been sure on this one.

Scott.

Scott you have put some good input and to a point your correct in what you have said, but being VAT registered isnt suitable for everyone. :-)

"Being VAT registered our fuel costs us 20% less. £1.89" should have read £1.189.

However, the annual fuel cost being VAT registered still works out as stated earlier.

Now let me make something perfectly clear GAS. I am not for even one second condemning your business model or decisions. I am not for one second saying that you don't know what your doing or talking about.

I am simply putting across another side of the argument so that people who read this forum can make a balanced decision.

If you have paid out right for your vehicle (and will not ever have to buy another one), if you do all your own maintenance so that it costs you nothing other than parts, if you don't use a PC or a printer then fair enough.

I am not making any kind of personal attack on you. I am simply putting forward a fuller and more detailed explanation of the reasons, applicable to the majority of owner drivers on here, why it is to their benefit to be VAT registered.

There is no need to shout with bold letters.

Regards,

Scott.

Gas Motorcycle Couriers said:

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Scott you have put some good input and to a point your correct in what you have said, but being VAT registered isnt suitable for everyone. :-)

I conceded this point a number of posts ago!

Scott.

Please dont take it the wrong way, thinking I was shouting on your big post, I was merely Highlighting in Bold the answers to what you have put as I didnt want to spend hrs quoting and sub quoting... so please dont take it the wrong way.. :-)

I dont deal with eBayers either.. Complete waste of time.

Just register for VAT Gary, no hassle, no detriment to your business just benefits. Also will end these rather pointless threads!

;)

No problem Gas. However, please remember that you seem to be in a situation which compared to the majority of courier drivers on here is rather unique. So your advice and opinion on whether to register for VAT or not is not really applicable to the majority of the sites membership.

The few points which you seem to push forward that I totally disagree with, are as follows.

1: Dealing with the VAT is a "Headache".

If you do it correctly from the start. It's no headache at all.

2: Dealing with VAT is "expensive".

Only if you don't do it correctly!

3: Dealing with VAT makes you an unpaid tax collector.

8 hours extra work per year to save (and by default), earn almost £2000 extra per year!

Based on fuel consumption alone, never mind the rest, I can't understand why any self employed courier driver would not register for VAT!

Scott.

Just a final point from me about the claimed two hours needed every quarter. My return takes me about five minutes and I don't need any special software, just my invoices for the quarter and a calculator.

MyVanCan.com said:

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Just a final point from me about the claimed two hours needed every quarter. My return takes me about five minutes and I don't need any special software, just my invoices for the quarter and a calculator.

I forgot to include the copious amounts of coffee breaks I take and the fact that I am mathematically dense.

This is why it takes me just a smidgen longer :-)

Scott.

However, regardless of my own laziness and stupidity, I still manage to do a VAT return without a headache or even breaking a sweat.

Scott.

Scott you mentioned earlier "I can hardly consider myself an unpaid tax collecter when I receive £350 for two hours work" In reality you have spent 2hrs of your time to recoupe £350 of vat back thats been paid to HMRC through receipts in which your claiming back through book work.. Ok it may be your business so it would have to be done anyway, but that 2 hrs of your time to claim vat back (I dont think HMRC are paying you for that time?)..

And on the subject of VAT and bonifide, Just to make a quick point as mention in another thread somewhere, Just because your VAT registered this doesnt make you bonified either, there are quiet a few business's in all sectors of work who are vat registered that will take your money and run, then dissolve, and start up again to rob the next victim...

Make the most of it, cos if your business continues to grow, before long you won't have the luxury of having a choice anyway

£1500 a week and you'll have to join the rest of us

Speed Couriers (Stansted) said:

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Make the most of it, cos if your business continues to grow, before long you won't have the luxury of having a choice anyway

£1500 a week and you'll have to join the rest of us

Yes I know Rob and I'm not looking forward to it, but there will come a time when one must do it.. :(

I never once made any indication whatsoever that non VAT registered traders are not bona fide. Nor did I make any allusions to the trustworthiness of non VAT registered traders.

However, as Rob rightly points out. Once you hit that threshold you will "have" to do it!

If you are grossing 50% or more of the threshold then once again, there is absolutely no reason why you should not do it already.

Scott.

PS: The "unpaid tax collector" argument is pointless!

Scott.