WTD for self employed

Doesnt the WTD come in to force in october for the self employed 48hr week, if it does make sure you have your time sheets to hand to account for your time driving/office work/answering the phone/ time off / POA

No dont think so, the rule may apply to those who are on driving regulations maybe, but not for the sole trader/self employed.. The only thing thats coming in october is vehicle tax is being transferred to a database just like insurance etc, and you cant pass whats left of the tax onto the next owner if you sell it..

New Vehicle tax rule.... Read the Vehicle buying section..

Thought it was all self employed

Aren't we technically under the GB rules? 48 hr week but no requirement to keep records and max 11 hrs duty per day?

As mobile works you are meant to keep driving records

Workers

Okay, having just read it again there is no exception for sole traders/owner drivers/self employed except that you can stretch the daily driving to 11 hrs but not the weekly max of 48, perhaps we should be keeping timesheets just in case. I can't see how they can police it without operators licensing and tachos though. Maybe they will be next.

Just a thought but if you are involved in a serious accident the police could possibly look at the Sat Nav and find out your driving history? Wether the information could be used for prosecution is another matter but it could prompt them to ask for details of you recent working hours?

Here is a much edited bastardised copy of a previous item on the same topic by someone in the know from another site.

"Although there is not yet any legal requirement to keep records of your working or driving hours for vehicles that are under 3,500kg. (i.e most of us in the Sameday Courier market), there is a requirement under the Working Time Directive and Health & Safety laws for drivers to have adequate rest.

The rules are enforced by VOSA, especially in cases where tiredness has caused an accident. In the case of an employee who causes an accident while exceeding their daily driving or duty time their employer would almost certainly be held liable for the accident. A death caused by an employee under these circumstances could leave the employer facing a charge of Corporate Manslaughter.

It should also be noted that both VOSA and the Police can go to extraordinary lengths to establish exactly how long a driver has been working, particularly following a serious accident. Mobile phone records can easily be checked to pinpoint the users whereabouts to within a few hundred metres, your own GPS tracking logs can provide even more conclusive evidence, fuel receipts can be examined and the time of fuel-card and credit-card purchases can be traced. Even a POD for a 500 mile round trip same day delivery may be enough to incriminate you.

VOSA are already using ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), in conjunction with axle weight sensors embedded in the road, to identify overloaded vehicles.

It’s only a matter of time before they use it to detect drivers’ hours offences as well"

Everyone seems to be in agreement that our industry needs regulating. Is this a step in the right direction I wonder? Surely no one can complain when action is taken to weedle out the so called "cowboys" can they?

True, and there are pro's and cons.

Ineffect you introduce a maximum wage. If you can only drive 10 hours, and for the sake of argument assume mostly paid one way, there is only so much you can earn.

But It would inevitably mean the end of backload rates for jobs that were never backloads in the 1st place.

I'm all for it

I was in the haulage business with my own tippers when the Tachograph and CPC for O Licences came into effect so I have some experience of the shift to a regulated system. If we go to Tachos they will choose an arbitrary age for vehicles it applies to, most vans are dead after 6 years so that might be where they start. That leaves a lot of old unregulated vehicles that help to prevent a surge in rates. It takes years to take hold but I tend to agree the only way to get rid of the cowboys is to get more sheriffs. In those days the tipper market was point to point pricing, no such thing as a backload you just focussed on reducing empty running.

Seems we need to do some lobbying then

I really can't see how they can manage it, there are over 250,000 new vans a year being registered and something over 2.5 million on the roads. HGVs are only a tenth of that market and they can't control them properly. You can easily spot a HGV but you can't readily tell a private van from a commercial van. The problem will come when you go into Europe and Monsieur Plod, Herr Plod and Senor Plod pick on the UK plated vans.

Everbody would be better off driving a car.

WTD covers everyone from drivers to factory workers but there is no way of policing it! Hgv drivers have the dissadvantage of tachos so there is a record of that drivers hours in effect they have prof what hours they did but unless your van has a tacho how on earth are they gonna prove what you have or havent worked. With or without what you write down its not proof of your hours so how can they prosecute anyone without some sort of prof. Of houurs.

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Here is a much edited bastardised copy of a previous item on the same topic by someone in the know from another site.

"Although there is not yet any legal requirement to keep records of your working or driving hours for vehicles that are under 3,500kg. (i.e most of us in the Sameday Courier market), there is a requirement under the Working Time Directive and Health & Safety laws for drivers to have adequate rest.

The rules are enforced by VOSA, especially in cases where tiredness has caused an accident. In the case of an employee who causes an accident while exceeding their daily driving or duty time their employer would almost certainly be held liable for the accident. A death caused by an employee under these circumstances could leave the employer facing a charge of Corporate Manslaughter.

It should also be noted that both VOSA and the Police can go to extraordinary lengths to establish exactly how long a driver has been working, particularly following a serious accident. Mobile phone records can easily be checked to pinpoint the users whereabouts to within a few hundred metres, your own GPS tracking logs can provide even more conclusive evidence, fuel receipts can be examined and the time of fuel-card and credit-card purchases can be traced. Even a POD for a 500 mile round trip same day delivery may be enough to incriminate you.

VOSA are already using ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), in conjunction with axle weight sensors embedded in the road, to identify overloaded vehicles.

It’s only a matter of time before they use it to detect drivers’ hours offences as well"

This is how

Andy McTighe said:

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Okay, having just read it again there is no exception for sole traders/owner drivers/self employed except that you can stretch the daily driving to 11 hrs but not the weekly max of 48, perhaps we should be keeping timesheets just in case. I can't see how they can police it without operators licensing and tachos though. Maybe they will be next.

Your meant to keep records, because what vosa say if its not down on paper it didnt happen

Drivers R Us (midlands) LTD said:

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WTD covers everyone from drivers to factory workers but there is no way of policing it! Hgv drivers have the dissadvantage of tachos so there is a record of that drivers hours in effect they have prof what hours they did but unless your van has a tacho how on earth are they gonna prove what you have or havent worked. With or without what you write down its not proof of your hours so how can they prosecute anyone without some sort of prof. Of houurs.

if You have a bad crash and its your fault, they would find out every little thing

If you are stopped at midnight & have a P. O. D in your van signed at 7am it is obvious to the authorities you have exceeded your hours.

My understanding is we are covered by "Domestic Driving Hours"

max driving without a break 5.5 hours max daily driving 10 hours max working day 16 hours min rest 10 hours (8.5 hours up to 3 times per week) + 1 24 hour rest period per fortnight.

I think you are right AV, we are supposed to come under the Domestic rules but as they cut police patrol cars down all they can do is concentrate on a few HGVs. If we are honest, we all take a chance and drive when we should be resting. South Wales police have stopped patrolling the M4 down here as they are short of cash, but you do see the occasional unmarked police car. When I worked for TNT I took a load from Cardiff to Monmouth to meet a driver that had just come back from Manchester, gave him the goods and off he went, straight up to Glasgow, turned around and came straight back, just to make his money up for the week. Crazy or what?

Yet again low rates helping to cause people to drive silly hours.

Exactly the scenario that led to Tachos in HGV's, cowboy operators, silly hours, silly rates all leads to people driving sheds until they crash them into something or somebody.

As I've said before on a different thread Tachos for all commercial vehicles and no hire & reward insurance without one - no cars!

Only then can vendors justify decent rates to customers and a minimum rate could be set by law to get rid of the companies taking the p**S

You'd never get a minimum rate set by law, what would happen would be a massive reduction in operators which would help rates to recover and stabilise.

As i've said in a previous post, supply and demand. A saturated pot of drivers lowers the price. Reduce that pot and prices go up.

Quite right Mr Speed, I suppose snipers are out of the question.

Legislation won't stop the recruiting of part time or lifestyle car drivers though will it, and they are increasingly the one's that affect rates. Without them an awful lot of contracts just couldn't be done, so lots of courier companies aren't going to be interested in any form of regulation.

A change of law will cancel most contracts under normal force majeure conditions. Most courier companies are principally clearing houses and they are only interested in retaining a margin and a market share. I can't see why they would object any more successfully than the haulage clearing houses did in the 70's and 80's. Sooner or later some lifestyle courier is going to mow down 10 kids at a bus stop after working 18 hours for £4 an hour and find that they are uninsured. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

Andy McTighe said:

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courier working for £4 an hour.

Jeez, where do I apply?

Yes Garnham totally crazy. Some of the courier companies encourage it almost force it. I once did an early hours Norwich to Wigan run for Citysprint, well over 200m. They got upset because I wasn't immediately available to go to Stone. ( I had turned off my phone & tracker while I went for breakfast)

Andy 18 hour day for £4 ph that is a great lifestyle lol

You'll always be working in the warm also. Lifestyle is so tropical ( vanheater)

You'll always be working in the warm also. Lifestyle is so tropical ( vanheater) Whats the best van heater for south wales weather could be a long night.

Thermal blanket Phil

Sheepskin Phil but don't let the farmer know.

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Legislation won't stop the recruiting of part time or lifestyle car drivers though will it, and they are increasingly the one's that affect rates. Without them an awful lot of contracts just couldn't be done, so lots of courier companies aren't going to be interested in any form of regulation.

All the more reason there should be regulation and large financial penalties for companies employing non insured drivers?

Looks like I will be snuggling up to some sheepskin tonight then

Not sleeping rough are you?

Yes Gary do it regular. Get out and see the world. No backload worries.