Shocking Rates

Well how some people manage to stay in business running into Europe is beyond me. Saying that i do have an idea but maybe that subject is for another thread!

After speaking to a few people and quoting on several jobs i have sort of come to the conclusion that it may not be worth going over the water.

I spent a good 15 years over there with my artic and was thinking it may be worth it in the Sprinter. From what i can make of it you need to get a decent enough rate going out and then get a job at a back load rate coming in(even if its a hotshot but thats for another thread as well).

So a hotshot out with some decent miles on it and a backload in with some decent miles on it and it could be ok. But alas No! Quoted a fair but decent enough rate on a Midlands to Cologne today, was told sorry mate been quoted £295 all in(that worked out at 47pplm with ferry paid. Quoted on a North East to Munich was told they had quotes of £700 so that worked out at ferry paid and 64pplm. These are for Lwb jobs as well.

So where we should be getting as a subbie somewhere around 80 to 90 pplm people are actually running out at backload rates then surely the same back in.

There are some companies on here as well as Courier Exchange who do pay fair and decent rates and do not expect the job done for peanuts and i have some of these companies who are happy to give me the work when they have it but when as such cold quoting for work with people running at the rates mentioned i dont stand much of a chance really. And it costs more to run the van abroad with insurance/breakdown/internet access/phone etc etc.

I am at a loss to say the least!

I love it :-)

Question is are they running OUT for that

Or are they running BACK for that

The chap that does all my euro work runs out at the say rate as he runs back at, which is just above a return rate

Alot of my jobs are only 1 or 2 pallets and let him co-load as long as mine get tipped1st

They are either getting double ups but i dont know where from? Or are just doing it for silly money. £675 Essex to Barcelona all in! Hands up if you could do it for that and your British?

Esi Logistics said:

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They are either getting double ups but i dont know where from? Or are just doing it for silly money. £675 Essex to Barcelona all in! Hands up if you could do it for that and your British?

Only if you had 3 different deliveries on board for different customers, or a stirling backload.

AJM sameday Couriers said:

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Esi Logistics said:

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They are either getting double ups but i dont know where from? Or are just doing it for silly money. £675 Essex to Barcelona all in! Hands up if you could do it for that and your British?

Only if you had 3 different deliveries on board for different customers, or a stirling backload.

Agreed yes that would be a good trip. The thing is some jobs are for full lwb jobs and still go for silly money. The thing that gets me is when quoting on a job that is near on impossible to co-load because of size/weight/really urgent etc ive been told sorry mate your miles out, and the tone at which they say it as if i am trying to fleece them, i normally reply with actually im not miles out ive just quoted what should be paid to a subbie but if you have people doing it at a backload rate or not from the uk then fine.

Ive done ireland for £280 cx job

But i also had but i also had a job to ireland for one of my customers £850,

SMH said:

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Ive done ireland for £280 cx job

But i also had but i also had a job to ireland for one of my customers £850,

Depending on van size, and the lack of ferries, hence hanging around time, I wouldn't do it for less even just to Belfast or Dublin!

As for £280....................... [shock/horror] the ferry alone on my long established Irish Ferry account is £130 each way!

£280 (s/v) + £850 (lwb) + £500 (lwb) return back to derby

When i got the paper work for the Courier Exchange's job it turned out it was going to the same m&s that i was going to with my stuff bonus

SMH said:

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£280 (s/v) + £850 (lwb) + £500 (lwb) return back to derby

When i got the paper work for the Courier Exchange's job it turned out it was going to the same m&s that i was going to with my stuff bonus

If you can charge £850 for a lwb van why do you moan when somebody quotes £2 a mile?

The going rate for abroad jobs seems to be 80p LM plus ferry one way, then about 60p LM ferry paid, that's sub contract.

L M SUFFIELD said:

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The going rate for abroad jobs seems to be 80p LM plus ferry one way, then about 60p LM ferry paid, that's sub contract.

Thats about right, the thing i still dont get is that even if its a urgent hotshot back in they still expect to pay a back load rate even though they are charging a hotshot to the customer. Also loads out are not numerous and if a East european has quoted on the same job then you have not a chance.

What the vendor charges their customers is no one elses business! If you aren't happy what they pay Don't do it!

Also there is no such thing as a 'going rate Charge what You want is all that matters!

The going rate is based on 7 or 8 courier companies I know who all pay roughly the same rate, so yes the choice is yours. Any job I get the chance to price on I do on this basis, you can be too greedy and end up with little work ,at least these prices keep the wheels turning and give you a chance to get extra backloads simple!,

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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What the vendor charges their customers is no one elses business! If you aren't happy what they pay Don't do it!

Also there is no such thing as a 'going rate Charge what You want is all that matters!

Yes it is there business and its none of my business, good luck to them if they are charging £2.00 a mile, my point is that if they have a job lets say loading Munich at 16.00 hrs and needs to be in UK 08.00am why shouldnt the courier get a rate that is fair to that job. Why does the vendor expect to only pay a backload rate because its coming back this way. He doesnt tell his customer well because its coming back to UK ill charge you less. And yes of course its up to the courier if he runs at that rate or not but so many jobs are going at silly rates its leaving less and less properly paid jobs to be had. And if you start running at these lower rates too much then you become a very very busy idiot burning lots of diesel for less money. As for charging what you want is all very well, charging what you want and actually getting that are becoming 2 quite different things.

Disagree

As I said before it is no one else's business what terms are agreed between the 2 parties.

The idea of being in business is to make as much , money as possible. Why pay someone more if you can get a cheaper rate and are confident and happy that they will do the job ok?

Once again it is the fault of the owner driver, who would prefer to take a cheap loaf back rather than return empty.

I certainly will not do any job cheap, I would sooner return empty than piss about waiting for a load whether a 100 mile job in the UK or a 2 thousand mile job from Poland or wherever. I just cant be bothered as I have priced my job correctly [for me] and if I return empty it matters not.

Good luck to anyone who is confident enough to get a job done at half price by a subbie, I personally would never trust anyone I did not know with my customers' important goods.

However, I applaud anyone making alot of money, it is what having your own business is all about, I detest socialist values anyway, so good luck to anyone with the nouse to make good money.

I just wish numpties refused to work for next to nothing, that would then result in the prices paid having to go up!

I must add that personally I would not and do not necessarily seek the cheapest price, as sometimes one has to pay for quality!

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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Disagree

As I said before it is no one else's business what terms are agreed between the 2 parties.

The idea of being in business is to make as much , money as possible. Why pay someone more if you can get a cheaper rate and are confident and happy that they will do the job ok?

Once again it is the fault of the owner driver, who would prefer to take a cheap loaf back rather than return empty.

I certainly will not do any job cheap, I would sooner return empty than piss about waiting for a load whether a 100 mile job in the UK or a 2 thousand mile job from Poland or wherever. I just cant be bothered as I have priced my job correctly [for me] and if I return empty it matters not.

Good luck to anyone who is confident enough to get a job done at half price by a subbie, I personally would never trust anyone I did not know with my customers' important goods.

However, I applaud anyone making alot of money, it is what having your own business is all about, I detest socialist values anyway, so good luck to anyone with the nouse to make good money.

I just wish numpties refused to work for next to nothing, that would then result in the prices paid having to go up!

I must add that personally I would not and do not necessarily seek the cheapest price, as sometimes one has to pay for quality!

To be honest i actually cant disagree with what you have written there. Yes i dont blame vendors for making as much money as possible out of a job. I suppose while people will run at silly rates then it will never change. Also even if a vendor is willing to pay a good rate if there are people who will do it for less then he is not going to argue. I am a big enough man to see it a different way if put over properly. Either way its a shame the industry is in the position it is with regards to rates for subbies and it seems to be getting harder to get the correct rate going out to then chose if you want to take a back load back.

Its just another job going in the same direction as all the other jobs in the UK. Some will last another 10 yrs or more, but most will eventually find work that is better respected and dare I say rewarded than being a COURIER. Web sites filled with 5 mile jobs or wanted at 50pplm (or less). UK roads filled with overseas number plates and growing. As they say in America 'you do the math'. But for all the people starting in this game what more could you want, own boss-earn and see the countryside-work when you want-meet new people the list of benefits is endless. :-) Or maybe I just got out of wrong side of bed this morning!

i> RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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Disagree

As I said before it is no one else's business what terms are agreed between the 2 parties.

The idea of being in business is to make as much , money as possible. Why pay someone more if you can get a cheaper rate and are confident and happy that they will do the job ok?

Once again it is the fault of the owner driver, who would prefer to take a cheap loaf back rather than return empty.

I certainly will not do any job cheap, I would sooner return empty than piss about waiting for a load whether a 100 mile job in the UK or a 2 thousand mile job from Poland or wherever. I just cant be bothered as I have priced my job correctly [for me] and if I return empty it matters not.

Good luck to anyone who is confident enough to get a job done at half price by a subbie, I personally would never trust anyone I did not know with my customers' important goods.

However, I applaud anyone making alot of money, it is what having your own business is all about, I detest socialist values anyway, so good luck to anyone with the nouse to make good money.

I just wish numpties refused to work for next to nothing, that would then result in the prices paid having to go up!

I must add that personally I would not and do not necessarily seek the cheapest price, as sometimes one has to pay for quality!

I agree with your comments,

The fight for work back to the U. K is more difficult by the day, as Kevin has stated t

The going rate for abroad jobs seems to be 80p LM plus ferry one way, then about 60p LM ferry paid, that's sub contract. Is that small van?

I don't see how you can take a job to Euro from a subber only willing to pay one way ferry costs? You wouldn't take a job to the Isle of man with on that basis.

When I do jobs to Ireland, wether it my own customer or if im subbing. I always charge for return, it's common sense really. I've done a few subby jobs for vendors on here and Courier Exchange, and they where to happy to pay for return. If it was for only 1 way, then i wouldn't do it because you won't make any money that way

'Going Rate' always makes me smile!

No such thing,

Charge what you want/need plus ferries and plus tolls. [and hotel] Charge enough for an empty return, anything else is a bonus.

If people were sensible/realistic and stopped working for 'nowt' vendors would have no choice in paying more

Won't happen though as there are too many clueless muppets in this industry!

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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'Going Rate' always makes me smile!

No such thing,

Charge what you want/need plus ferries and plus tolls. [and hotel] Charge enough for an empty return, anything else is a bonus.

If people were sensible/realistic and stopped working for 'nowt' vendors would have no choice in paying more

Won't happen though as there are too many clueless muppets in this industry!

Totally agree, the fact of it is though, the rates are where they are and i really cant see how they are going to change. I had a couple of companies who i subbed for who would happily pay a decent rate and ferry out and ferry in. These were companies who knew me and trusted me and didnt expect me to rely on a backload in. The problem when proportioning blame is that it is easy to blame the vendor saying they want the job done for peanuts, but can we really blame a vendor who is in business to make money wanting to get it done in a way to make as much money as possible. Some people will say they wont get the job done properly but this isnt always true as there are very good reliable couriers still running at silly rates. But the biggest thing that should happen but wont is that couriers will never stick together like they should, and who starts putting the rates up. For example if i decided to charge what i would consider the correct rate and add the ferry out and in on every job then i would be sat at home all day every day. This is not the case for me as i have now packed it all in from last week because i cant see the rates going up and we have spent years cutting our own throats. The only people rubbing their hands together seem to be the vendors and the East europeans who can live abroad but join British exchange sites. The only people to blame for shocking rates seem to be the couriers themselves.

Esi Logistics said:

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The only people rubbing their hands together seem to be the vendors and the East europeans who can live abroad but join British exchange sites.

The only people to blame for shocking rates seem to be the couriers themselves

Never a truer few words said,

Good luck in all you do Kevin Regards Terry

Courier Guru said:

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I don't see how you can take a job to Euro from a subber only willing to pay one way ferry costs? You wouldn't take a job to the Isle of man with on that basis.

Hold on am I missing something..

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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'Going Rate' always makes me smile!

No such thing,

Charge what you want/need plus ferries and plus tolls. [and hotel] Charge enough for an empty return, anything else is a bonus.

If people were sensible/realistic and stopped working for 'nowt' vendors would have no choice in paying more

Won't happen though as there are too many clueless muppets in this industry!

TBH Alun the Vendor would just move onto the next victim, sorry subbie

Still foolish to agree a price where one has to rely on a back load to make a profit or even to pay for a ferry home.

[or indeed having to use the RN instead of Toll Roads]

Esi Logistics said:

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RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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'Going Rate' always makes me smile!

No such thing,

Charge what you want/need plus ferries and plus tolls. [and hotel] Charge enough for an empty return, anything else is a bonus.

If people were sensible/realistic and stopped working for 'nowt' vendors would have no choice in paying more

Won't happen though as there are too many clueless muppets in this industry!

Totally agree, the fact of it is though, the rates are where they are and i really cant see how they are going to change. I had a couple of companies who i subbed for who would happily pay a decent rate and ferry out and ferry in. These were companies who knew me and trusted me and didnt expect me to rely on a backload in. The problem when proportioning blame is that it is easy to blame the vendor saying they want the job done for peanuts, but can we really blame a vendor who is in business to make money wanting to get it done in a way to make as much money as possible. Some people will say they wont get the job done properly but this isnt always true as there are very good reliable couriers still running at silly rates. But the biggest thing that should happen but wont is that couriers will never stick together like they should, and who starts putting the rates up. For example if i decided to charge what i would consider the correct rate and add the ferry out and in on every job then i would be sat at home all day every day. This is not the case for me as i have now packed it all in from last week because i cant see the rates going up and we have spent years cutting our own throats. The only people rubbing their hands together seem to be the vendors and the East europeans who can live abroad but join British exchange sites. The only people to blame for shocking rates seem to be the couriers themselves.

You seem to blame subbies for running at stupid rates, then you indicate that it's understandable, then you blame the courier companies!

I'm not clear on you point!

The problem is the couriers themselves. So many who are new to the industry think that just undercutting prices will bring them in all the work. But it does'nt work like that!

There will always be courier companies who want it done at back load rates and don't care the the stupid subbie won't be able to pay his mortgage at the end of the month since there will always be another idiot in the pipeline!

If they just did their homework a bit better and realised that for EVERY job, you should quote a price that allows you to leave home, pick up, collect the load, deliver the load and return home whilst making a decent profit without ever having to think of co-loading or backloading then the industry would be more profitable and more professional.

Here here... My rate is my rate i need to run at, nothing more nothing less.

I get your point and my point is that i dislike the fact that vendors expect hotshots done at backload rates and dont seem to be prepared to pay a decent rate and that annoys me but on the other hand like you say couriers will run at silly rates. If couriers undercut themselves then the vendor wont argue and its then the couriers fault. So my point is that some vendors bloody annoy me not willing to pay a decent rate and can be greedy. And im bloody annoyed at couriers who have cut all our own throats with running at silly rates to get work. I have not got the answer to a solution to it all. All i know is that rates are a joke. If quoting on work today from an exchange site if you quote like you say a rate that you can return empty and make a profit then unfortunately you wont get much work because the rates have been cut to pieces. Its one thing saying what you should quote its another getting it in todays market.

I agree Scott, BUT... Why should a Courier company 'care the the stupid subbie won't be able to pay his mortgage at the end of the month' ?? It is not their fault or concern

Life is full of choices, maybe if that statement is the case, they ought to pack this in and get a salaried job? Too many just have no idea how to run a business, nobody is forcing anyone to work for peanuts!