30 DAYS PAYMENT? Really?

WHEN IS 30 DAYS PAYMENT REALLY 45+ DAYS?

Let me explain... I did some work for a company in the St Helens area who told me they pay on 30 days from invoice.

I received a typical job with all the relevant addresses. I was told i should self-bill on receipt of their purchase order. Without their order reference i cant invoice. 3 days after the job i receive an email with the information. I invoiced them immediately and sent First class post ... (Remember they pay 30 days from receipt of invoice which took 5 days to reach them). But... They also have a clause that states payment will be made on the 1st friday following 30 days of the invoice received.

So in summary:

1. A job done on the 1st of september will be invoiced on the 4th of september
2. The invoice will be received on the 9th of september
3. The 30 days payment terms will begin on the 10th september
4. Payment will be made on the next friday following the 30
5. Payment expected on the 17th of October
6. 47 days after completion of the job !!!

I no longer work for this company

Not nearly as bad as 60 days end of month. There are a couple on here who pay that way, maybe its time for exchange/work sites to start helping couriers out by not allowing anything more than 30 days from invoice date and by that I don't mean 30 days from end of month. I am still awaiting payment from one big local haulier from the start of July despite me stating that my terms are 30 days from invoice date I am also waiting for payment from a freight company on here that pays 60 days end of month, in affect that's getting on for 3 months.

30 days from when the job was done seems the easiest to me.

Anything else is just deliberate time wasting.

Agreed

Agreed 2

Why does it have to be ANY days? If the vendor owned or bought a van, employed a driver to do the job, he would have to pay out everything we pay out BEFORE we even go out on the road. In my time I have subbed out a couple of jobs - for my customers, I was unable to do the job, but I didn't want to risk losing a valuable customer. I paid both jobs (at the price I was charging) IMMEDIATELY on receipt of invoice and POD. Why must vendors make us wait? And don't tell me they have to wait to be paid themselves. Like I said, if they did it themselves they'd be paying up front before they turn a wheel.

Dennis said:

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Why does it have to be ANY days? If the vendor owned or bought a van, employed a driver to do the job, he would have to pay out everything we pay out BEFORE we even go out on the road. In my time I have subbed out a couple of jobs - for my customers, I was unable to do the job, but I didn't want to risk losing a valuable customer. I paid both jobs (at the price I was charging) IMMEDIATELY on receipt of invoice and POD. Why must vendors make us wait? And don't tell me they have to wait to be paid themselves. Like I said, if they did it themselves they'd be paying up front before they turn a wheel.

The truth is that we finance their business, they wouldn't be able to pay everybody before they get the money in. So when they screw us on price or by understating mileage or whatever we are acting as their banker and their victim. We must be a bit dim when you think about it.

Let me explain... I did some work for a company in the St Helens area who told me they pay on 30 days from invoice.strong text This company sounds familiar Mr G.

Did job for a company who was advertising for xlwb vans and would be paying weekly.

It was 14th August still not paid after two reminders, tomorrow they will be issued with a lpc.

Andy McTighe said:

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Dennis said:

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Why does it have to be ANY days? If the vendor owned or bought a van, employed a driver to do the job, he would have to pay out everything we pay out BEFORE we even go out on the road. In my time I have subbed out a couple of jobs - for my customers, I was unable to do the job, but I didn't want to risk losing a valuable customer. I paid both jobs (at the price I was charging) IMMEDIATELY on receipt of invoice and POD. Why must vendors make us wait? And don't tell me they have to wait to be paid themselves. Like I said, if they did it themselves they'd be paying up front before they turn a wheel.

The truth is that we finance their business, they wouldn't be able to pay everybody before they get the money in. So when they screw us on price or by understating mileage or whatever we are acting as their banker and their victim. We must be a bit dim when you think about it.

No. The REAL truth is they shouldn't accept jobs they can't finance. If I didn't have enough cash to fill my fuel tank, I wouldn't be able to accept a run to Scotland, would I? We are not just financing their business, we are taking all the financial risk of THEIR customer going belly up, they are laughing all the way to the bank, no need to hold operating capital, let the subbies cover it. Our 'contract' is not with their client, it's with them.

Dennis said:

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Andy McTighe said:

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Dennis said:

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Why does it have to be ANY days? If the vendor owned or bought a van, employed a driver to do the job, he would have to pay out everything we pay out BEFORE we even go out on the road. In my time I have subbed out a couple of jobs - for my customers, I was unable to do the job, but I didn't want to risk losing a valuable customer. I paid both jobs (at the price I was charging) IMMEDIATELY on receipt of invoice and POD. Why must vendors make us wait? And don't tell me they have to wait to be paid themselves. Like I said, if they did it themselves they'd be paying up front before they turn a wheel.

The truth is that we finance their business, they wouldn't be able to pay everybody before they get the money in. So when they screw us on price or by understating mileage or whatever we are acting as their banker and their victim. We must be a bit dim when you think about it.

No. The REAL truth is they shouldn't accept jobs they can't finance. If I didn't have enough cash to fill my fuel tank, I wouldn't be able to accept a run to Scotland, would I? We are not just financing their business, we are taking all the financial risk of THEIR customer going belly up, they are laughing all the way to the bank, no need to hold operating capital, let the subbies cover it. Our 'contract' is not with their client, it's with them.

Well to be honest it's a simple solution - these days we have paypal, bank transfers etc absolutely no need to do i owe you - if the vendor is not getting paid by his contract it's his negotiations so why does the courier or subbie have to do an i owe you - it comes down to undercutting one another to be honest, if 1 man insists on being paid before or straight after the job is completed, i can bet u there's 100 couriers willing to happily wait 30 days to be paid just to secure the job - who do you think will get the job?

If Courier Companies were forced to pay 30days or less (before the job is done is being a tad over optimistic) then there would certainly be a lot less Courier Companies around than there are now, thats for sure.

As for the Courier taking the risk? Sorry but i can't agree there. Unless the Courier Company itself goes bust, I would expect the Courier Company to pay any courier for what they've done, whether that Courier Companies customer has gone bust or not.

Surely that's the whole point of their being 1-The Customer, 2-the Courier Company who takes works from that customer, and 3-The Courier who carries out that work. The buffer being the Courier Company.

If a company goes bust on us, and it has happened, then we take the hit. If our accounts keep on top of things, then that loss is minimised

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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If Courier Companies were forced to pay 30days or less (before the job is done is being a tad over optimistic) then there would certainly be a lot less Courier Companies around than there are now, thats for sure.

As for the Courier taking the risk? Sorry but i can't agree there. Unless the Courier Company itself goes bust, I would expect the Courier Company to pay any courier for what they've done, whether that Courier Companies customer has gone bust or not.

Surely that's the whole point of their being 1-The Customer, 2-the Courier Company who takes works from that customer, and 3-The Courier who carries out that work. The buffer being the Courier Company.

If a company goes bust on us, and it has happened, then we take the hit. If our accounts keep on top of things, then that loss is minimised

Agree

Agree with speed

But look at it another way, why should the Courier Company bank roll the subbie, if they don't have the cash flow to support their business on 30 days end of month,why should the Courier Company. After all the subbie is a business in their own right just the same as the Courier company so as for people saying they are financing the Courier company they are actually financing THEIR own.

Don't normally comment, but I'm sure someone will put me in my place.

Vantastic transport said:

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Agree with speed

But look at it another way, why should the Courier Company bank roll the subbie, if they don't have the cash flow to support their business on 30 days end of month,why should the Courier Company. After all the subbie is a business in their own right just the same as the Courier company so as for people saying they are financing the Courier company they are actually financing THEIR own.

Don't normally comment, but I'm sure someone will put me in my place.

Your right!
Sadly it seems that alot of drivers are desperate, and due to poor business plans it is a catalyst for driving prices down.

In all my working life businesses have worked on a 30 day Invoice payment. Most of my customers are 60 or 90, it is my choice to accept this and tbh matters not in the overall scheme of things. We do pay on 30 days though :)

RAPID LIGHT TRANSPORT LTD. said:

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Vantastic transport said:

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Agree with speed

But look at it another way, why should the Courier Company bank roll the subbie, if they don't have the cash flow to support their business on 30 days end of month,why should the Courier Company. After all the subbie is a business in their own right just the same as the Courier company so as for people saying they are financing the Courier company they are actually financing THEIR own.

Don't normally comment, but I'm sure someone will put me in my place.

Your right!
Sadly it seems that alot of drivers are desperate, and due to poor business plans it is a catalyst for driving prices down.

In all my working life businesses have worked on a 30 day Invoice payment. Most of my customers are 60 or 90, it is my choice to accept this and tbh matters not in the overall scheme of things. We do pay on 30 days though :)

The economy would be alot less strained n much more efficient if certain industry sectors caught up with the times and ditched old working habits which are more open to things going wrong.

You don't buy a loaf in Tesco and pay for it the following month though do you.

You do if you pay for it on a creditcard

Only rich people use credit cards to buy groceries us poor people are still using the bartering system.

Very few pay for things now. You buy a house over 25 years, a car generally on finance. PAYE workers get paid every Month, after they've done the work. You pay for things using a creditcard. Not your money, someone elses, and you pay it off at the end of each month, or you put it off for another month.

In all walks of life we buy using credit, using other peoples money, and we expect to be able to turn the tap on and get water, to switch the light on and to get gas at the turn of a dial. And you pay it once the bill comes in.

So why should the Courier industry be any different?

It shouldn't need to be but the original post was about 30 days magically turning into 45 days before payment. If I didn't pay my credit card bill on time I would be slapped with extra interest charges so I make sure I pay it off before those charges occur. 30 days or before we can live with but not having the piss taken and getting it stretched to over 40, as you have said before Rob why not 30 days from when the job is done.

Easily resolved by NOT working for them again. I know, too late by the time you find out, but add em to your list of those you won't work for. The main problem is many take on work from vendors BEFORE finding out what their payment terms are. And vendors don't check what terms the Couriers they've just got to cover a job are either.

There are ways to check, but we generally don't have the time or inclination do we?

Again easily resolved... Don't let anyone become a member unless they agree to a 30 day payment from the date the job was carried out.

To be honest all the people ive personally sub for are great at paying - aslong as they do pay i dont mind waiting - i was just merely suggesting better ways of working - even taxi drivers now carry card machines lol

Agreed Mr S

Personally I think end of the month following is normal, and has been since my first haulage business in 1978. I object strongly to late payment though. It might not matter to them but they will get on my blacklist pretty quickly if they don't pay on time.

Much a fuss about nothing, I have worked for companies especially large ones who pay when they feel like it five months is the longest I have had to wait, if somebody pays late has long has its not ridiculously late I dont mind and has time goes by you get to know and trust and build a relationship with the people you work for.

Interesting to note that unless you have already agreed a payment date, the vendor must pay you within 30 days of getting your invoice.

If not you can use a statutory demand to formally request payment of what you’re owed, and you have the right to charge interest for late payment.

When an individual or company receives a statutory demand, they have 21 days to either:

• settle the debt
• reach an agreement to pay

If there’s no agreement, whoever issues the statutory demand can start bankruptcy proceedings (against individuals who owe £750 or more) and/or winding up a limited company that owes more than £750

Much easier to just ensure as a vendor, you pay on time, and as a subbie, you get that invoice done and sent asap

Agreed

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Interesting to note that unless you have already agreed a payment date, the vendor must pay you within 30 days of getting your invoice.

If not you can use a statutory demand to formally request payment of what you’re owed, and you have the right to charge interest for late payment.

When an individual or company receives a statutory demand, they have 21 days to either: - settle the debt - reach an agreement to pay

If there’s no agreement, whoever issues the statutory demand can start bankruptcy proceedings (against individuals who owe £750 or more) and/or winding up a limited company that owes more than £750

Much easier to just ensure as a vendor, you pay on time, and as a subbie, you get that invoice done and sent asap

There was a bloke who put a winding up order on Tesco not so long back. Not sure how much they owed him but they paid him not long after.

Kehoe Light Haulage said:

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Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Interesting to note that unless you have already agreed a payment date, the vendor must pay you within 30 days of getting your invoice.

If not you can use a statutory demand to formally request payment of what you’re owed, and you have the right to charge interest for late payment.

When an individual or company receives a statutory demand, they have 21 days to either: - settle the debt - reach an agreement to pay

If there’s no agreement, whoever issues the statutory demand can start bankruptcy proceedings (against individuals who owe £750 or more) and/or winding up a limited company that owes more than £750

Much easier to just ensure as a vendor, you pay on time, and as a subbie, you get that invoice done and sent asap

There was a bloke who put a winding up order on Tesco not so long back. Not sure how much they owed him but they paid him not long after.

250 million?

There is of course Factoring invoices through your bank. If you are worried about your cashflow or the company you have worked for going bust the bank will guarantee payment. There is a fee to pay usually 15% of the invoice. Invoices are paid from your bank weekly to you irrespective of the 30 day, 60 day invoices etc. This info was in a load of junk mail posted through my door. I just avoid the 60 day payers.

Mr g was the payment terms in writing or txt. Or verbal if it was verbal then there is deniability on there side that they told you the terms correctly if its in txt or email then youve got them banged to rights

Factor your invoices and build in the cost. No waiting

You will find that a lot of customers/vendors will not use anyone who use factoring companies. Myself have had this issue with a owner driver and was the biggest headache going. I refused to pay them until I got my pod. Simple rule really, no pod=no payment. They even threatened to take me court aswell. 3 months later I got the pod but lost a customer in the process. My payment terms are simple 30 days from end of month, which seems to be pretty much the norm these days. Any terms longer than that are between customer and company, if both are happy with them terms and have the cashflow to do those terms, then i can't see a problem

Saddlebow Deliveries said:

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There is of course Factoring invoices through your bank. If you are worried about your cashflow or the company you have worked for going bust the bank will guarantee payment. There is a fee to pay usually 15% of the invoice. Invoices are paid from your bank weekly to you irrespective of the 30 day, 60 day invoices etc. This info was in a load of junk mail posted through my door. I just avoid the 60 day payers.

Factoring does not cost 15% normally between 2 to 5% of the total invoice value. They then allow you to draw down between 80 and 90% the balance received when customer pays. Most factors offer credit insurance so guaranteed payment. Remember they all negotiate on rates. It does solve your cash flow problem as they then look after your sales ledger. Consider cash flow and time saved by allowing them to do credit control, not such a bad idea.

In my experience factoring companies do more harm than good. They do little about your debts other than to send a statement out, and if they do actually chase up unpaid invoices, they are talking to your customers. Not sure about you, but i wouldn't want a stranger chasing up my customers for outstanding monies. I have no idea how they'd come across. They may well lose you your customer.

If you have customers who are bad payers, which result in you needing a factoring company then i'd dump that customer for ones that do pay up ontime.

If you need a factoring company for any other reason, i'd think long and hard at what possible plus points they bring to your business. Do they cover your customers going bust, or is that a seperate charge? I very much doubt it comes in the 2-5% fee. And what happens if your factoring company goes bust, taking your money with it. It happened with London & Provincial.

And Darren is right, there are many companies who will not deal with those that use factoring companies

Although my payment terms are 30 days end of month, I do tend to pay within 7 days depending on when paperwork is returned to me.

I won't use anyone who uses factoring companies tho. Too much trouble and not worth the hassle. I definatly wouldn't want them contacting my customer either, the quickest way of losing 1

The 15% for factoring was in my junk mail from Barclays Bank. I didn't read the small print as to how they arrived at 15%. Bin. A friend of mine was running 4 transits out of Rolls Royce at Derby nation wide. They changed his payment to 90 days. Almost cost him his marriage and his health suffered. Now a controller for T. N. T. more stress!

Just a general question, why do people avoid others who "Factor" their invoices?

Express Couriers Northwest Ltd said:

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Just a general question, why do people avoid others who "Factor" their invoices?

One reason is what Speed said

they are talking to your customers. Not sure about you, but i wouldn't want a stranger chasing up my customers for outstanding monies. I have no idea how they'd come across. They may well lose you your customer.

And this is another reason to avoid Factoring your money

bibby

Don't forget not ALL your customers will be bad payers, so why give 2% of your hard earned across the board when it'll only be one or two that pay late. Also if the factoring company can't collect the debt after x months then they just hand back the uncollected debt to you, which you'll have already had from them. So you now owe them money, and as they're collecting your money, they will take it back when the want to, which won't always be a convenient time for you.

I don't mind working on terms of 30 days or even 30 days end of month as long as it is paid then. You have to give some sort of credit, there will be very few business to business deals that pay goods on delivery these days.

I only do 30 days from invoice I've got a luton curtainsider now which is in demand and have turned endless jobs down for. 60 days end of month or 60 days from invoice and my own customers ie end user are on 14 days from invoice and I have no probs so to those that want my curtainsider it's 30 days from invoice max or try and find another in sheffield cos I no there are few and far between thanks Martin m&k logistics

M&K Logistics said:

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I only do 30 days from invoice I've got a luton curtainsider now which is in demand and have turned endless jobs down for. 60 days end of month or 60 days from invoice and my own customers ie end user are on 14 days from invoice and I have no probs so to those that want my curtainsider it's 30 days from invoice max or try and find another in sheffield cos I no there are few and far between thanks Martin m&k logistics

No chance of 31 days then martin lol. Have u been busy mate

Well said Mr M&K.

I agree avoid if you can, but a lot of couriers cant. We are seeing more and more small owner drivers using them.

And there lies the problem. Starting up without the necessary finance means you'll find it more likely you'll be forced to do runs at prices you really shouldn't be doing em for.

No business would open its door without any funds so why should this one be any different?

Because it looks easy. Just put a parcel in your van take it from A to B. Obtain a signature, wait for the next job.

If your credit score is good there are people falling over themselves to lend you the money.

It looks easy cos it should be exactly that, So why do so many manage to completely screw up? Lol

Anyway, I digress, to have any chance it must be obvious to anyone with the slightest bit of business acumen, that you'll need some funds to tide you over.

Lets assume you do just 1000 miles a week to begin with in a small van, thats £130 a week in fuel alone. In one month thats over £500, and if it were me, i'd have 3 months worth of funds, so £1500. Plus i need to live while i'm waiting to be paid. And that figure, whatever it may be, cos we all have different expenses, needs to be a figure you forget about, cos it'll always be needed. What i mean by that is that once you start, you'll always have oustanding invoices due to you, so you'll always need that reserve to tide you over. The only time you'll see it again is when you stop working.

The way i see it, to stand any chance, you need a pot of around £5-10k and thats after you've shelled out for a new/nearly new van (£5-10K) and all the insurance that goes with it (another 2-3k).

How many would become a courier knowing that?

They screw up because they think its easy. A professional courier does his/her homework finances etc etc. In all walks of life there are cowboys. I see it on tv every week. In building, plumbing, gas, electricity etc there are recognised bodies but it still does not stop the rogue tradesman. Even if some sort of regulation comes into force for us i fear we will still have the "cowboy rust bucket brigade

I am afraid its a walk away if you don't like or get it wrong society. These people don't care about the cost or that it might give a bad impression of our trade. Here today gone tomorrow. Courier today veg picker tomorrow.

Darren you could have 31 days mate lol and yes been very busy mate 6 days a week at minute and I turn about 5 jobs a day down from people ringing me off Courier Exchange how's east Lancs doing is it going well we new van Darren

M&K Logistics said:

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Darren you could have 31 days mate lol and yes been very busy mate 6 days a week at minute and I turn about 5 jobs a day down from people ringing me off Courier Exchange how's east Lancs doing is it going well we new van Darren

Glad you have been busy. I've been busy myself since going to the big van. I seem to turn more and more work away each day. Yesterday i turned down about 12 jobs, so I must be doing something right. Stay in touch mate

Sorry for going off topic guys lol

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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It looks easy cos it should be exactly that, So why do so many manage to completely screw up? Lol

Anyway, I digress, to have any chance it must be obvious to anyone with the slightest bit of business acumen, that you'll need some funds to tide you over.

Lets assume you do just 1000 miles a week to begin with in a small van, thats £130 a week in fuel alone. In one month thats over £500, and if it were me, i'd have 3 months worth of funds, so £1500. Plus i need to live while i'm waiting to be paid. And that figure, whatever it may be, cos we all have different expenses, needs to be a figure you forget about, cos it'll always be needed. What i mean by that is that once you start, you'll always have oustanding invoices due to you, so you'll always need that reserve to tide you over. The only time you'll see it again is when you stop working.

The way i see it, to stand any chance, you need a pot of around £5-10k and thats after you've shelled out for a new/nearly new van (£5-10K) and all the insurance that goes with it (another 2-3k).

How many would become a courier knowing that?

I get CV's sent to me through the post on a weekly basis. And yes you probably guessed right, non of them have ever been in transport business ever. Seems to be a growing problem these days. They even ask if i supply the van along with the insurances & fuel and still want to know what i pay per loaded mile. My shredders gets busy these days with these idiots that have no clue whatsoever. I done 6 months homework myself and at times i'm still learning new things about this business.

Why are you turning work away?

Take the job and cover it on an exchange site!

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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Why are you turning work away?

Take the job and cover it on an exchange site!

Its vendors from Courier Exchange, I don't think that would go down too well would it Rob lol

Ah... Thought you meant calls from customers

As for the Courier taking the risk? Sorry but i can't agree there. Unless the Courier Company itself goes bust, I would expect the Courier Company to pay any courier for what they've done, whether that Courier Companies customer has gone bust or not.

Real world how many companies would pay up if gone bust

Agreed with swift, as I would be working for the courier company not his customer that's where the verbal contract ls.

The whole point for there being a "trade rate" is the fact that you don't take the risk. If there are any Courier Companies that don't pay until they get paid then i have two words for em, and the first begins with an "f", equally if one of their customers goes bust, all very sad and all that, but not my customer so not my probem. Pay up!

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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The whole point for there being a "trade rate" is the fact that you don't take the risk. If there are any Courier Companies that don't pay until they get paid then i have two words for em, and the first begins with an "f", equally if one of their customers goes bust, all very sad and all that, but not my customer so not my probem. Pay up!

I agree with Rob on this you are working for the courier not his customer,

Speed Couriers Nationwide Ltd said:

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The whole point for there being a "trade rate" is the fact that you don't take the risk. If there are any Courier Companies that don't pay until they get paid then i have two words for em, and the first begins with an "f", equally if one of their customers goes bust, all very sad and all that, but not my customer so not my probem. Pay up!

Hmmm.. what if the business you are refering to has a 14 day payment term policy with any client and equally has a good credit control, but trade has a 30 day, are you still refering that term to those?

Sorry Gary you've lost me.

What your stating is: Any courier business who relies on payment to pay said subbie is in your eyes a "f", which I agree and thats down to bad business acuman, but what if the courier business is paid before said invoice from subbie comes through on a 30, that technically even in a short space of time is pretty much the same, Ie Im paid so its pointless me hanging onto it as the job is done so pass it on when the paperwork comes through, therefore is classed as same but in a different business sense.

I know the norm is 30 for some, but there are a few who are pretty much on the ball and pay straight away if not within the 30 stipulated, which of course covers a previous topic from some time ago.. And thats where Im coming from Rob.

Wow... Now i am lost... Simple is " PAY THE BILL STRAIGHT AWAY"

If they pay earlier than you expect i can't see anyone complaining about that so i'm not sure the relevance of what you're saying. Unless i'm being dim?

The point of this topic concerns those that either keep you waiting for your money cos they can, or keep you waiting cos they have no cashflow and are waiting to be paid themselves.

My input related to those that don't pay when their customer goes bust and/or when their customer delays payment to them. The reason we have a trade rate is because in theory we the courier companies are a buffer between the customer and the courier. I. E it is us that should be carrying the risk NOT the courier.

So if any courier company delays payment because of either scenario then it is them i have a gripe about.